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Green Lantern #20 *Previews/Spoilers*

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  • Originally posted by Iggy View Post
    Clearly you haven't read a Marvel book within the past 3 years.
    Originally posted by Hypo View Post
    Really? Writing a future story is hubris? I guess there's a ton comic book writers out there with pride issues since this is hardly the first story that had a portion of it set in the future. Hell it seems like every second X-Men storyline nowadays involves the future in someway and I don't see people calling those writers self-serving...
    You guys got me. I don't read Marvel (not since I was about 12) with few exceptions.

    Originally posted by Iggy View Post
    No writer can dictate the future of any character. Just look at Kingdom Come, all the epilogues were nice little endings that Geoff wanted to write. You seem to forget that comics are always in the second act.
    Originally posted by Iggy View Post
    Of course, but based on some posters here it would seem that the epilogues are the official end to the GL universe.
    Originally posted by Mister Ed View Post
    I don't think they are saying that. I think they are saying that Geoff Johns' attempt to establish the ultimate futures of pretty much everything in the GLU was a sign of extreme hubris, BECAUSE attempting to do so is almost certainly futile.
    I'm not sure I agree with that viewpoint, not having read it yet.
    Yep. Sorry. I see I clearly used the wrong words. And kudos to Ed for divining my meaning despite this.

    I realize, of course, that everything he did can be retconned. My problem wasn't that this will always stand. My problem is that it dictates the future even now (and that is egotistical, imho). I guarantee the new writers will not overwrite this stuff for quite some time. So Johns essentially said, "look, you can have my toys, but this one stays white and these two are a couple ..."

    That means we know in GLNG 22 Kyle won't give up the white ring. We know that John won't find another girl in GLC 27. The writers don't have the choice unless they want to retcon already (and they won't want to retcon the mighty Johns yet). Now, 10 years from now will all this count? Probably not. But Johns' epilogues were sweeping, dictating the future of all the major characters not only late in their lives but for the next arcs that he's not writing.

    Did a bunch of Marvel writers do this? I don't know. I don't like how they do things anyway. But my experience with future stories before were that they tended to deal with one or two characters way down the line, not all of them starting today.

    And yes, DC has said on numerous occasions (before the new 52 even happened) that Kingdom Come and The Dark Knight Returns are possible futures or alternate realities. This obviously didn't fall in that category.

    Originally posted by Iggy View Post
    Plus this is the first time that I can recall that DC has celebrated a writers run like this and it's fitting it's Geoff Johns.
    This is where we differ.

    Originally posted by Iggy View Post
    ...I hope Grant Morrison receives the same treatment when he leaves Batman in two months.
    And this is where we don't. I hope so too. At this point it would seem like an insult not to so something big.

    Originally posted by Big Daddy Dave View Post
    This is pretty much spot on with where I am with the issue right now. Get out of my head Space Cop!
    Well, if it's any consolation, we disagree on Mahnke's art. Although, I have to say I continued to enjoy his alien characters here. The splash with Sinestro looked great.


    Originally posted by ryche View Post
    How did a green ring resurrect Hal anyway? One minute his pal was saying if he gave up the will to live he'd be really dead hence why the black ring went on him so wtf. I'd believe it if somehow Kyle helped but he didn't.
    Yeah. That was a rubbish deus ex machina. Kyle says he can't even resurrect him but then a simple GL ring does it automatically.

    Originally posted by Star-Lantern View Post
    Nekron just appears.
    Nekron just disappears...
    Yeah, I didn't like that either, especially the sending back part. I suppose they had that explanation that Hal was in control of him, but that didn't feel like it jived with Blackest Night. I could be wrong. I haven't read BN since it was new. Maybe someone else remembers if Black Hand had the ability to dispel Nekron at any moment?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SD80MAC View Post
      Oh my goodness. I forgot the young Hal's desire/white light of creation stuff. That was so weird. What was that? I mean his point can't be that specifically Hal Jordan's mourning and wanting to see his dad again were the power of creation (if so, he sure didn't explain how). So was his point that Hal's feelings are typical of the white light? Well, if that's true why didn't it work with Atrocitus or John or any random Joe Schmo? Very strange.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ryche View Post
        How did a green ring resurrect Hal anyway? One minute his pal was saying if he gave up the will to live he'd be really dead hence why the black ring went on him so wtf. I'd believe it if somehow Kyle helped but he didn't.
        Johns showed his inner Hal/HEAT fanboyishness with that garbage. He didn't want to have Kyle bring Hal back to life out of fear of looking like Kyle 1-upped Hal.

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        • There was no explanation for the Green Ring resurrecting Hal in Rebirth that I can remember so I didn't need one now. I do not think that Johns didn't have Kyle bring back Hal due to fear of being one upped. One of the major complaints of Vol. 5, was the lack of Hal. Johns delivered an issue that was very Hal - centric, isn't that what you guys wanted?!

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          • Originally posted by Space Cop View Post
            Oh my goodness. I forgot the young Hal's desire/white light of creation stuff. That was so weird. What was that? I mean his point can't be that specifically Hal Jordan's mourning and wanting to see his dad again were the power of creation (if so, he sure didn't explain how). So was his point that Hal's feelings are typical of the white light? Well, if that's true why didn't it work with Atrocitus or John or any random Joe Schmo? Very strange.
            Yeah I was going to add that to my list of questions, but I reread that part enough times to just chalk it up to being some kind of symbolism or message that went over my head just like "He was the spark that started the everlasting fire".

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            • Johns showed his inner Hal/HEAT fanboyishness with that garbage. He didn't want to have Kyle bring Hal back to life out of fear of looking like Kyle 1-upped Hal.
              Whatever Geoff's failings, not giving Kyle some added glory is one I can gladly accept. Kyle in his prime was a dude on cruise control, being significant more on his exclusive status than anything done to enhance the GLU as a whole. Kyle as Gandalf the White is just another bone thrown to fans who wanted him as Ion or the Blue Lantern Earthman. It makes his journey in NEW GUARDIANS an utter waste but then there were 7199 other GLs I could've stood seeing more of other than the Alley Rat.
              "A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce these same qualities in its leaders."

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              • Amazing final issue, absolutely fantastic. Loved every minute of it and loved the answers we got, the fight scenes and all the awesome moments with Hal and Sinestro. Great finish to a great run.
                No Sir, I punched the viceroy in the stomach, then I headbutted him in the face. Sir.-Hal Jordan

                Villain Draft (Best Team Winner)/Proud Supporter of the DCnU

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                • Originally posted by chosenone85 View Post
                  There was no explanation for the Green Ring resurrecting Hal in Rebirth that I can remember so I didn't need one now. I do not think that Johns didn't have Kyle bring back Hal due to fear of being one upped. One of the major complaints of Vol. 5, was the lack of Hal. Johns delivered an issue that was very Hal - centric, isn't that what you guys wanted?!
                  The green ring didn't resurrect Hal in Rebirth. Ganthet did, by directing Hal's soul back to his body. The ring only went back to Hal in Rebirth AFTER he was alive again.
                  "My mind is deluged with thoughts of Heaven and Hell,
                  Crime and Punishment, Damnation and Redemption. Hal
                  Jordan... And The Spectre.

                  I'm dead, yet I live. I have no identity. Yet I know
                  who I am. And once again I've been given power enough
                  to change the world. This time, Lord...
                  Let me be worthy."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Space Cop
                    Yeah, I didn't like that either, especially the sending back part. I suppose they had that explanation that Hal was in control of him, but that didn't feel like it jived with Blackest Night. I could be wrong. I haven't read BN since it was new. Maybe someone else remembers if Black Hand had the ability to dispel Nekron at any moment?
                    I never took that from BN. Black Hand was the gateway ALLOWING Nekron to enter the universe is what I always understood. Hence why bringing Black Hand back to life was the game winner in punting Nekron. And I think that's the same method here. Hal, by being dead and all Black Lantern-y, opened the door for Nekron. Hal, not being all Black Lantern-y anymore, essentially slammed the door in Nekron's face just like it did with Black Hand. I took the quip of Hal's as dramatic effect more so than his actually doing anything to expel Nekron.

                    Here's another take. It's pretty God damned sad you got to try and interpret a major instance like Hal coming back to life. Was it Young Hal's magic honky aura? Was it the First Ring? Was it a combination of both? Is the "spark" talked about within Hal and the connection to the power in the origin of the universe what made it happen? Is Hal just that bad ass? Was the thought of banging Carol enough to make it "rise"? Can Saint Walker make little blue pill constructs and if so, will it be necessary when Hal is a grandpa? Could Kyle get any more retarded as a concept? Could Guy's rage keep his hardened, drunken liver pumping along with his rage-filled heart? Could Senator Stewart do something with that lame ass goatee and form a Senate Investigatory Panel to review this schlock for answers?

                    Are we done yet?

                    Can Hal please be a swingin' dick test pilot again? And crash a malfunctioning F-22 into Kyle's touchy-feely Vagina of Solitude known as Kyle's apartment?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JohnMc View Post
                      Johns showed his inner Hal/HEAT fanboyishness with that garbage. He didn't want to have Kyle bring Hal back to life out of fear of looking like Kyle 1-upped Hal.
                      Which Kyle wouldn't have, which is why that scene makes even less sense.
                      Originally posted by Tommy Boy View Post
                      touchy-feely Vagina of Solitude
                      That is the PERFECT name for Johns-era Hal Jordan. I can't think of any other comic book character that has been so "emo," and that's taking into account 1970s/1980s introspective Hal, too. (Which, of course, was all Parallax's fault.)
                      SD80MAC
                      Not a True Fan
                      Last edited by SD80MAC; 05-23-2013, 04:05 PM.
                      The last fan of 1990s comics
                      Read my Green Lantern blog The Indigo Tribe

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tommy Boy View Post
                        I never took that from BN. Black Hand was the gateway ALLOWING Nekron to enter the universe is what I always understood. Hence why bringing Black Hand back to life was the game winner in punting Nekron. And I think that's the same method here. Hal, by being dead and all Black Lantern-y, opened the door for Nekron. Hal, not being all Black Lantern-y anymore, essentially slammed the door in Nekron's face just like it did with Black Hand. I took the quip of Hal's as dramatic effect more so than his actually doing anything to expel Nekron.

                        Here's another take. It's pretty God damned sad you got to try and interpret a major instance like Hal coming back to life. Was it Young Hal's magic honky aura? Was it the First Ring? Was it a combination of both? Is the "spark" talked about within Hal and the connection to the power in the origin of the universe what made it happen? Is Hal just that bad ass? Was the thought of banging Carol enough to make it "rise"? Can Saint Walker make little blue pill constructs and if so, will it be necessary when Hal is a grandpa? Could Kyle get any more retarded as a concept? Could Guy's rage keep his hardened, drunken liver pumping along with his rage-filled heart? Could Senator Stewart do something with that lame ass goatee and form a Senate Investigatory Panel to review this schlock for answers?

                        Are we done yet?

                        Can Hal please be a swingin' dick test pilot again? And crash a malfunctioning F-22 into Kyle's touchy-feely Vagina of Solitude known as Kyle's apartment?

                        There is so much about this post that I love.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bat22 View Post
                          Kyle as Gandalf the White
                          Priceless.

                          Comment


                          • I thought it was a great issue. It has a lot of unexplained things and a few "did it just because it's cool" things, but despite that I enjoyed it.

                            Don't see a problem with the epilogue. A lot of writers have written stories set in the future. I remember Flash comics tying in Wally's daughter from Kingdom Come into the Cobalt Blue story. And you have DC 1 million giving Superman's ultimate end. Legion also had plenty of hints to the future of the GLC, whether it was destroyed (and not just by Jhons) or whether it was business as usual. This one's different in that it's written in such a way that it's supposed to be "the end", but it's no more canon than ANY story set in the future.
                            Gauntlet101010
                            Alpha-Lantern
                            Last edited by Gauntlet101010; 05-23-2013, 06:28 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by Iggy View Post
                              You mean praising him for ending a long run? Which in recent memory most other writers have received?
                              9 pages for years of mediocrity? C'mon. He's been phoning it in since SCW. I'm more of a quality over quantity guy. Maybe he if he had 8 years of solid 5 star work instead of just 8 years of useless retcons to fit his own narrative and fellate his own ego.

                              At this point I don't know who has the biggest ego. Geoff Johns or Alex Ross. Atleast Ross can create Masterpieces even if he is a colossal douchebag.

                              Comment


                              • After putting some space between myself and this issue, I am still severely disappointed, still in Bah Humbug land, and thus have no regrets about my giving it a "two" in our poll.

                                First, what has been the penultimate conflict throughout the Johns run? Hal vs the emotion of fear. In particular, the fear he experienced after watching his father's plane crash. Fear that his father disapproved of him. Fear that his mother hated him for joining the Air Force on his eighteenth birthday. Despite his billing as "born without fear," we learn that even the greatest Green Lantern becomes great through the "overcoming" of fear.

                                So the two big moments arrive, to resolve all those fears. Hal meets the spirit of his father in the Dead Zone, and Hal confronts the child within him weeping for comfort. Big deal. Whopping half dozen panels. Totally anticlimactic. Bad writing, bad literature, does not pass the believability test.

                                Second, way too many fantasy elements in this issue. Nekron comes and goes, seemingly on command like a trained lap dog. Hal "dies" by suicide yet "wills" the black ring to his finger, then contacts the Indigo Tribe to free him (if the Indigo Tribe really are in tune with the dead, why does it take a ring to make contact? etc). The emotional spectrum gets "sucked out" of the villain and he just vanishes with the swipe of a scythe (why, then, was Nekron even needed? Atrocitus could have done the deed). The green ring "resurrects" a "dead" Jordan and reconstitutes him with his "real" yet construct child self, no explanation (why, then, was Baz the first to "heal" with the ring?) Sinestro controls Parallax, not the other way around (yeah, right, sure). Not a shred of believable science fiction continuity is left, even within the "bookends" of "rebirth."

                                If the 22 pages used for house ads and gushing-praise splash pages honoring Johns had been dropped from the book, there would have been more room for meaningful art, believable story-telling, and substantive closure. So in an 82 page book, minus 22 for ads, we have 60 pages of story. Hokay. But just think! You paid a dime a page, roughly, for each of those 82 pages! That means each of us shelled out two and a quarter bucks to listen to accolades! Time was, an 80-page giant cost a quarter. We wuz robbed.

                                Footnote: In the GL:NG title this month, there is a one-page splash tribute for Carmine Infantino, the late artist who brought us such classics as "Flash of Two Worlds" and, indeed, many of the classic Green Lantern issues of the 1960s (in relief of others). How does that compare, historically, to those of Johns? History is written by the victors.
                                Evergreen City
                                Corps Den Mother
                                Last edited by Evergreen City; 05-23-2013, 09:38 PM.

                                The power of will is found at the deepest level of your being. It's more than mere rules. It's a duty that you must honor.

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