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  • So maybe that's the plot behind the plot? Johns can't resist the temptation to rewrite Emerald Twilight?

    By the way, where are those stinkin' entitites? Haven't smelled the foul stench of Parallax for, oh, a year now...

    The power of will is found at the deepest level of your being. It's more than mere rules. It's a duty that you must honor.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by W.West View Post
      [CENTER]

      [CENTER]
      Anyone else notice that Hal's eyes are like Black Hand's in this picture?
      No Sir, I punched the viceroy in the stomach, then I headbutted him in the face. Sir.-Hal Jordan

      Villain Draft (Best Team Winner)/Proud Supporter of the DCnU

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GreenLantern888 View Post
        Anyone else notice that Hal's eyes are like Black Hand's in this picture?
        Or it could just be the inks?

        Comment


        • Kind of makes sense if you consider the third army being lead by the first lantern...who may have a white ring.

          Comment


          • :Moderator:

            Originally posted by Mister Ed View Post
            Which is why I don't blame MARZ for ET's shortcomings. But they are still there, nonetheless, and it seemed to me like DC spent YEARS doing damage control and trying to spin things in an effort to spackel over the shortcomings of that one story, and retroactively justify it's central conceit, that Hal somehow would have snapped and lost it to that degree even from the minimal justifications given.
            Very interesting debate for something decades old. ET wasn't perfect, but it made sense at the time. Minimal justifications? I can assume you mean, if Coast City was not destroyed (which would have changed the entire "Return of Superman" story), something else would have pushed Hal over the edge, I guess.

            Yes, ET could have been longer. Yes, ET could have been better. But ET needed to happen, for many reasons. Sales of GL were low, they needed something to spark interest (from a business standpoint). But more importantly...Hal's home city was destroyed by a fake Superman. Does anything else need to be said? For all Hal knew, everyone he knew and loved was dead, and he wasn't there to help them.

            Imagine being in his shoes - you have "the most powerful weapon in the Universe" and are "the Greatest Green Lantern", and yet because of some emotionless bosses, you lose everything you hold dear so a couple of psychopaths can turn the Earth into a Warworld because you're off doing their bidding. I would snap if that happened, I would fucking lose my shit. But to make matters worse, the Guardians basically shrug off his pain (dealt with by trying to re-create Coast City with his Ring in a vain attempt to bring back what was lost) and say to him "Um, you can't do that. Get over it, and get back to work."

            ET was a logical continuation of what was happening in Superman at the time. What else could they have done? Have Hal be all like "oh well, that sucks, gotta muster the Willpower to carry on." Possibly, but that would have made him look like a fucking tool.

            The concept was great, the execution not perfect, but not horrible either. Hal should have been the DCU version of Magneto, and/or become the Spectre, to finally end up somewhere other than the GLC.

            Rebirth ruined it, the Entities ruined it, Geoff Johns ruined it. And now we have a cookie cutter hero who might as well have never gone through any of that stuff in the first place.

            Oh wait...the DCU got re-booted (mostly), so maybe none of it happened after all. There was no destruction of Coast City, Cyborg Superman and Mongul don't and never have existed, and there was no Sinestro Corps War because the Parallax entity never existed either.

            "But how did we get to where we are now?" you ask.

            Who fucking knows, and who fucking cares? Johns and Didio don't, so why should we?
            sigpic
            Winner: Reality TV draft 2014


            "Weeds. All of them weeds. I am perfection, and I am alone in the garden of the universe." - Cyborg Superman

            Comment


            • Very interesting debate for something decades old. ET wasn't perfect, but it made sense at the time. Minimal justifications? I can assume you mean, if Coast City was not destroyed (which would have changed the entire "Return of Superman" story), something else would have pushed Hal over the edge, I guess.

              Yes, ET could have been longer. Yes, ET could have been better. But ET needed to happen, for many reasons. Sales of GL were low, they needed something to spark interest (from a business standpoint). But more importantly...Hal's home city was destroyed by a fake Superman. Does anything else need to be said? For all Hal knew, everyone he knew and loved was dead, and he wasn't there to help them.

              Imagine being in his shoes - you have "the most powerful weapon in the Universe" and are "the Greatest Green Lantern", and yet because of some emotionless bosses, you lose everything you hold dear so a couple of psychopaths can turn the Earth into a Warworld because you're off doing their bidding. I would snap if that happened, I would fucking lose my shit. But to make matters worse, the Guardians basically shrug off his pain (dealt with by trying to re-create Coast City with his Ring in a vain attempt to bring back what was lost) and say to him "Um, you can't do that. Get over it, and get back to work."

              ET was a logical continuation of what was happening in Superman at the time. What else could they have done? Have Hal be all like "oh well, that sucks, gotta muster the Willpower to carry on." Possibly, but that would have made him look like a fucking tool.

              The concept was great, the execution not perfect, but not horrible either. Hal should have been the DCU version of Magneto, and/or become the Spectre, to finally end up somewhere other than the GLC.

              Rebirth ruined it, the Entities ruined it, Geoff Johns ruined it. And now we have a cookie cutter hero who might as well have never gone through any of that stuff in the first place.

              Oh wait...the DCU got re-booted (mostly), so maybe none of it happened after all. There was no destruction of Coast City, Cyborg Superman and Mongul don't and never have existed, and there was no Sinestro Corps War because the Parallax entity never existed either.

              "But how did we get to where we are now?" you ask.

              Who fucking knows, and who fucking cares? Johns and Didio don't, so why should we?
              There was nothing about ET that needed to happen, what actually needed to happen was for DC editorial to get their heads out of their asses and let Gerard Jones tell the kind of GL stories that he wanted to. The problem with the sales started because they stepped in and started to tell Jones what stories to write and the sales which were very strong when volume 3 started went downhill.

              As far as the actualy story that was a joke and Hal's reaction to the death of Coast City was handle in the issues before ET. He dealt with it and moved on, Hal isn't the type to snap which is why the events in that book always rang so hollow to alot of his fans. There was nothing about him acting like himself that would have made him a tool, it would actually have been a cool story to watch him dedicate himself to rebuilding Coast City and planting himself back on earth in the aftermath.

              ET was a joke and making Hal a lame version of Magneto was just as bad, Hal was always his own man the idea that he had to become a cheap version of some other character is ridiculous. As annoyed and angry as I am with the GL reboot which hasn't shown Hal in the best light, thank god for Johns and Rebirth who fixed the problems that abomination ET created.
              "If at first you don't succeed, try Kyle again!".

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Maverick_GL View Post
                Very interesting debate for something decades old. ET wasn't perfect, but it made sense at the time. Minimal justifications? I can assume you mean, if Coast City was not destroyed (which would have changed the entire "Return of Superman" story), something else would have pushed Hal over the edge, I guess.

                Yes, ET could have been longer. Yes, ET could have been better. But ET needed to happen, for many reasons. Sales of GL were low, they needed something to spark interest (from a business standpoint). But more importantly...Hal's home city was destroyed by a fake Superman. Does anything else need to be said? For all Hal knew, everyone he knew and loved was dead, and he wasn't there to help them.

                Imagine being in his shoes - you have "the most powerful weapon in the Universe" and are "the Greatest Green Lantern", and yet because of some emotionless bosses, you lose everything you hold dear so a couple of psychopaths can turn the Earth into a Warworld because you're off doing their bidding. I would snap if that happened, I would fucking lose my shit. But to make matters worse, the Guardians basically shrug off his pain (dealt with by trying to re-create Coast City with his Ring in a vain attempt to bring back what was lost) and say to him "Um, you can't do that. Get over it, and get back to work."

                ET was a logical continuation of what was happening in Superman at the time. What else could they have done? Have Hal be all like "oh well, that sucks, gotta muster the Willpower to carry on." Possibly, but that would have made him look like a fucking tool.

                The concept was great, the execution not perfect, but not horrible either. Hal should have been the DCU version of Magneto, and/or become the Spectre, to finally end up somewhere other than the GLC.

                Rebirth ruined it, the Entities ruined it, Geoff Johns ruined it. And now we have a cookie cutter hero who might as well have never gone through any of that stuff in the first place.

                Oh wait...the DCU got re-booted (mostly), so maybe none of it happened after all. There was no destruction of Coast City, Cyborg Superman and Mongul don't and never have existed, and there was no Sinestro Corps War because the Parallax entity never existed either.

                "But how did we get to where we are now?" you ask.

                Who fucking knows, and who fucking cares? Johns and Didio don't, so why should we?
                Did you read the same ET that I did? Hal failed to save Coast City because he was off saving MALTHUS, an entire FREAKING PLANET, that, due to its population density probably had more people living on it than had lived on Earth for its entire history combined. Add to that that Hal hadn't LIVED in Coast City for quite a while, EVERYBODY that he REALLY cared about WASN'T IN IT when it went up (Carol, Tom, his brothers -yes Spectre later established that one of them did die there, but in Final Night it was made clear that Hal at least THOUGHT they were both alive) AND he just got his pal Superman BACK from the dead. In fact, his "losses" due to Coast City were so non-existent that Marz was forced to invent a childhood sweetheart for Hal to be upset over (even though, logically, Hal wouldn't have any idea whether she was even still living in Coast City when it went up- he hadn't seen her in YEARS). ET was so out of left field that I had to double check the issue number on the cover when I first read it, to make sure I hadn't missed an issue. Hal went from dealing with the loss in the previous issue to being inconsolable and snapping mentally to the point where he was talking to his constructs as if they were real (even arguing with them). And I'm to believe that, not only is he so disconsolate at the loss of this city (in which nobody he really cared deeply about was present) that he snaps mentally, but that his response is to attack, maim (joking along the way, mind you), and kill members of the organization that has been the most important part of his life for YEARS. So losing something that hasn't been that important to him, leads him to go attack that which has?

                Sorry, the execution of ET WAS horrible. Hal went insane with NO build-up (in fact the OPPOSITE of build-up in the immediately previous issue) and little justification, attacked, maimed and killed members of the organization he cared about and had been the focus of his life for YEARS (unlike Coast City).

                The Guardians didn't stop him even though they could have easily done so, mainly because editorial's goals demanded it. The Guardians let John Stewart (with the powers of a Guardian) "sleep in" and instead choose to bring BACK FROM THE DEAD the enemy MOST certain to cement Hal's determination to keep attacking them, the enemy that Hal had defeated REPEATEDLY even when he was armed with a weapon that exploited Hal's weakness, and give him just a GL ring to use, not because there was any LOGIC to that, but because "A big Hal Sinestro battle would be kewl! Who cares if it makes no sense?"

                There was pretty much nothing about ET that made sense. They failed to establish any good grounds for Hal to go insane, they failed to even SHOW the path to that insanity, just opening the first book with him already loopy enough to argue with his own constructs. They failed to have the Guardians mount anything like a sensible defense, opting instead for what seemed "kewl".

                And to top it all off, they had the Guardians all kill themselves for no reason at all, simply because editorial required there to be no more Guardians. The ability of a SINGLE Guardian to power a single ring with no issues at all was, ironically, established clearly in "Ganthet's Tale". Y'know, the story that INTRODUCED Ganthet? If Marz was going to use him in an important role, it seems like it might have been a good idea to actually read that, huh? No, instead we have all the Guardians killing themselves to pool their life force in Ganthet so he could power a single ring. What the what? Then Ganthet was STILL somehow so drained that he barely had time to look around for somebody to give the ring to, and NO time to explain anything? Why? Never explained at all, one more thing that was just tossed in to the story with no explanation or justification simply because it was part of the required checklist for the desired new status quo. New GL must have no instructions? Make Guardian disappear! Check! Why? Who cares! We filled the check box!

                That's what ET was, Marz filling the check boxes for the new status quo handed to him by editorial, and not sweating the details. I don't blame Marz, and I didn't even have a problem with the new status quo, but the extremely abbreviated path taken to get there was terrible, and full of gaping holes.

                Comment


                • If I wanted Hal to snap over the destruction of Coast City, I would have

                  a.)made him either try and FAIL to save it or be unavailable for some selfish reason (like he shut off his JLA beeper to spend time alone or something) so he would reasonably feel some kind of guilt over the matter

                  b.)had people he actually cared about DIE in the disaster. If Tom, Carol, and his brothers were all lost, THEN I would EXPECT him to be disconsolate.

                  And as far as the defense of Oa went, there was absolutely no reason not to have John as the final defense. It would make about a million times more sense. He's more powerful AND he would give Hal pause, unlike Sinestro. And you could still work some method of Hal getting past him, through something other than a pure slugfest, possibly involving the presence of John's previously dead wife Katma, and the fact that Hal just wants the power to do something similar for Carol.

                  John could even have been the final Guardian (with the other Guardians sacrificing their life force to force immortality on him), the one that recruited Kyle, and his inability to stick around and train Kyle could have been due to the fact that he NEEDED to be present on Oa to use his power to maintain the Mosaic.
                  Mister Ed
                  Horse of a Different Color
                  Last edited by Mister Ed; 08-19-2012, 05:02 PM.

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                  • And that boys and girls is why Kyle Rayner sucks and Hal Jordan fans will always hate him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dr. Naysay View Post
                      And that boys and girls is why Kyle Rayner sucks and Hal Jordan fans will always hate him.
                      Really?

                      Because as much as I complain (or used to- these days I only comment on it occasionally when something sets me off) about the many, many faults of ET, I didn't have a problem with the new status quo, and thoroughly enjoyed Marz's run with Kyle, post-ET, and would have been OK with Hal staying dead (though I ALWAYS wanted the GLC to come back).
                      Mister Ed
                      Horse of a Different Color
                      Last edited by Mister Ed; 08-19-2012, 10:10 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mister Ed View Post
                        Really?

                        Because as much as I complain (or used to- these days I only comment on it occasionally when something sets me off) about the many, many faults of ET, I didn't have a problem with the new status quo, and thoroughly enjoyed Marz's run with Kyle, post-ET, and would have been OK with Hal staying dead (though I ALWAYS wanted the GLC to come back).
                        I'm not pretending that it's rational or fair or intelligent or anything else...

                        but when they done what they done to Hal Jordan I hated it and as hard as I tried to keep reading GL (and comics in general) I couldn't "forgive" Kyle for what DC had "done" to Hal.

                        Comment


                        • Fair enough. Perhaps I am atypical in my despising ET and at the same time enjoying Marz's run. I really do like all the Earth GL's.

                          I do, however, have favorite eras of each.

                          When Mosaic was a going concern, I honestly would say John Stewart was my FAVORITE GL. Nowadays, there hasn't been a lot to recommend him.

                          Guy used to annoy the heck out of me, but I really started to enjoy him from the beginning of Vol. 3, and started to love the character once he got Sinestro's ring (that's still my favorite Guy era, though I like him now, too).

                          I enjoyed most of Kyle's run, though there were times when it seemed like he was being held in a holding pattern at the "rookie" level. Then they'd have some big story where he really "learned what it means to be a hero" or whatever (which were usually good stories) but then they have him do the same thing again in another such story several months down the line. But the character has always interested me (and he was awesome in JLA back then, too). Now he's no longer being treated like a rookie, and I really like that, but he's kind of saddled with the whole Rainbow Corps aspect, which I'm not crazy about.

                          Hal, well, for much of my Green Lantern reading, Hal was THE GL, so I liked Hal because I liked GL. There were large swathes of that, though, where I felt that the "Hal" part of the character wasn't paid a lot of attention. I really like Hal in early Vol. 3. I liked Hal a lot early in Geoff's run, as well. I really enjoy the Silver Age GL stuff from the Archives, but Hal (like a lot of Silver Age hero civilian identities) wasn't very developed. So I have a real fondness for Hal as GL, but there were only a few eras where I also enjoyed Hal as...Hal.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dr. Naysay View Post
                            And that boys and girls is why Kyle Rayner sucks and Hal Jordan fans will always hate him.
                            I love Hal Jordan he's my favorite character and I still love Kyle Rayner, I blame DC Editorial in the 90's for all the bad shit they did in the 90's.
                            No Sir, I punched the viceroy in the stomach, then I headbutted him in the face. Sir.-Hal Jordan

                            Villain Draft (Best Team Winner)/Proud Supporter of the DCnU

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GreenLantern888 View Post
                              Another Future page from a past issue GL 62:



                              So I'm thinking this is talking about the Third Army.
                              Going to skip most of the Hal VS Kyle and ET hating here and just wonder aloud how Hal being possessed by Parallax is really the Guardians' fault now and not Sinestro's or Parallax's. Maybe it was because they hit Hal when he was down at that point causing him to be possessed? Yeah, I'll go with that, sure.

                              Anyhow, I guess I'm the only person on the board that's looking forward to the annual. Although looking at the cover makes me think of Ghostbusters.

                              Also, that conversation is totally impossible if they're talking about Hal. Although they must be, either through Hal losing his ring or, possibly, dying.
                              Gauntlet101010
                              Alpha-Lantern
                              Last edited by Gauntlet101010; 08-20-2012, 02:00 PM.

                              Comment


                              • I think the implication might be that they deliberately infected Hal with Parallax. Why? I dunno. Because they're EEEEEEEVIL!

                                But yeah, that "loss of one of the Lanterns of 2814" comment, what the heck? I guess maybe they mean the "loss" of John through his trial? Or the "loss" of Kyle through his association with the other color spectrums? Who knows? Who would have thought Geoff Johns would ever have one of these glimpses of the future that don't end up being fulfilled in any clear way?

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