Any other Star Trek fans on here??

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

Corruption within the ranks of Starfleet is so common, it might as well be the norm.

Now THAT'S an exaggeration, and you know it. (Or else just poorly phrased, because the way you phrased it here it sound like it is saying a Starfleet officer is more likely to be corrupt than not.)

I haven't actually watched Picard, so maybe you can let me know if this perception is accurate. It seems like the corruption here is much more...effective, let's say...than in previous instances. It has a much larger effect on the actions of Starfleet as a whole, and on the ethics of various Federation actions over a period of years. Previously it has felt like (with the notable exception of Section 31's existence) a corrupt Starfleet or Federation official is revealed, and dealt with by our heroes, in fairly short order, with their plans being foiled before they have much of a lasting effect.

It seems to me to be a notably darker take to allow the corruption to have such a large effect on the course of Federation history. The Admiral in Insurrection was thwarted in short order. The assassins in Star Trek 6, while they did kill Gorkon, were stopped from killing the Federation President, and their aim of disrupting the peace talks failed. The Admiral who tried to stage something of a military coup because he thought the fight against the Dominion warranted it was also thwarted before any serious damage was done.

Section 31 was a different case, of course, (though largely because their early operations were simply retconned in) but from the time they were first revealed the heroes were opposing them, and in the end things didn't really go according to their plans.

In Picard, I get the impression that the corruption went undetected for a long while, and had a large, adverse effect on the Federation, even if it ended up being exposed years after the fact, and thwarted in its current goal, during the Picard series. That, to me, paints a much darker vision than any of the previous instances of corruption I can recall.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

Re Ed's complaint about language, I'm not a prude about that, and as a fan of Westerns, I wanted to watch Deadwood. But when no character can speak one sentence without "fuck" in it, I'm turning off the television.

That's what people who can't write dialogue resort to. Similarly, making something about corruption in the ranks or among the brass is something that people who can't think of stories resort to.

[Parrylakks Neko Samurai Find all posts View Profile Close Parrylakks]

There were only two corrupt Starfleet officers in Picard, and only one of them was high ranking. They were Romulan moles that had been there for a very long time. True, they were part of a secret order of Romulans who had manipulated the federation several years prior to the main events of the series, leading to the plot centric ban on synthetic life, but the whole order had done that together, not just them. They were (more or less) simply spies.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

There were only two corrupt Starfleet officers in Picard, and only one of them was high ranking. They were Romulan moles that had been there for a very long time. True, they were part of a secret order of Romulans who had manipulated the federation several years prior to the main events of the series, leading to the plot centric ban on synthetic life, but the whole order had done that together, not just them. They were (more or less) simply spies.

But they had, successfully, influenced Starfleet and the Federation in a bad direction for years before being exposed. That's what seems darker to me. The forces of good had failed to notice or oppose them (at least successfully) until long after significant damage was done.

[Parrylakks Neko Samurai Find all posts View Profile Close Parrylakks]

All they did, all they ever wanted to do, was prevent synthetic technology from moving forward. They acted out of fear, pushing everyone, including the federation, to stand against synthetic development. I don't know if I'd necessarily call it a "bad" direction -- a limiting one, for sure, as we see how it caused some otherwise preventable things due to some medical procedure limitations, but still. It's not like the federation was fooled into committing some heinous crimes or anything. And arguably, given what one of the synthetics does of its own free will by the end of the season, the fears that made those Romulans act may have actually been legitimate. There's something out there that wants to kill everyone, and those Romulans really just want to protect us.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

All they did, all they ever wanted to do, was prevent synthetic technology from moving forward. They acted out of fear, pushing everyone, including the federation, to stand against synthetic development. I don't know if I'd necessarily call it a "bad" direction -- a limiting one, for sure, as we see how it caused some otherwise preventable things due to some medical procedure limitations, but still. It's not like the federation was fooled into committing some heinous crimes or anything. And arguably, given what one of the synthetics does of its own free will by the end of the season, the fears that made those Romulans act may have actually been legitimate. There's something out there that wants to kill everyone, and those Romulans really just want to protect us.

What did the Federation do to synthetics that already existed when the ban was enacted? The ban itself seems problematic, since the shows have previously established that synthetic intelligences are legally people, too. I'd say the ban and its aftermath ARE rather dark chapters in Federation history. (That's not even considering that before the ban it sure looks like they created these synthetics as disposable people to use in dangerous situations, exactly the kind of thing being argued against in Data's trial.) It also led to the Federation deciding to abandon any humanitarian aid for Romulus. That seems like a pretty dark direction as well.

And I have to say, an argument that says that the dark, questionable actions of a group might have been justified because something even more dark and deadly is out there...doesn't do a lot to convince me that the show ISN'T taking Star Trek in a much darker direction than I prefer.

[Parrylakks Neko Samurai Find all posts View Profile Close Parrylakks]

We see that B4 has been dismantled, so I would assume any synthetics that weren't destroyed on Mars during the attack were similarly dismantled, which means they could be rebuilt and turned back on after the ban was lifted once the existence and actions of the secret romulan sect was discovered. That's a thing, too, by the by. Both spies are removed from Starfleet and the ban is lifted by the end of the season. That state of affairs is known to us for a whopping 10 episodes! And you want a hopeful future? There's a huge subplot about a reclamation project on a Borg cube, involving the de-assimilation of the Borg.

Basically what I'm saying is that none of this makes it feel unlike Star Trek. The occasional F-bomb can be jarring, sure, but that's really the only thing that feels off, and even that's barely problematic at all (as it makes sense given the people who drop them).

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

We see that B4 has been dismantled, so I would assume any synthetics that weren't destroyed on Mars during the attack were similarly dismantled, which means they could be rebuilt and turned back on after the ban was lifted once the existence and actions of the secret romulan sect was discovered. That's a thing, too, by the by. Both spies are removed from Starfleet and the ban is lifted by the end of the season. That state of affairs is known to us for a whopping 10 episodes! And you want a hopeful future? There's a huge subplot about a reclamation project on a Borg cube, involving the de-assimilation of the Borg.

Basically what I'm saying is that none of this makes it feel unlike Star Trek. The occasional F-bomb can be jarring, sure, but that's really the only thing that feels off, and even that's barely problematic at all (as it makes sense given the people who drop them).

Personally I'm not a fan of profanity even when it "makes sense" for who uses it, and I would find it very jarring in Star Trek (Data swearing in Generations was one of THE stupidest moments in all of Trek, IMHO.) I prefer not to watch things where excessive profanity "makes sense" (and that is not Trek IMHO). But that in itself wouldn't keep me from watching it unless it was far more pervasive than I have heard.

What concerns me more is the level of graphic violence. Because from what I have heard and read, there are definitely some scenes in there that I would find unacceptable on that score. Obviously you do not. Diff'rent Stokes and all that. The descriptions of those scenes, even if there are only a few of them, tells me that I'm not watching this show with the kids, and at this point, I have no interest in a Star Trek that I can't share with the whole family, which has always been true of Trek in the past.

When you ADD that to the unnecessary profanity, and the arguably darker tone (and I will grant that you've made enough of a case there that I would be willing to give it a go if that were the only issue I had), I just don't think it is something I'm inclined to seek out. I'm certainly not going to subscribe to a streaming service to watch it (and I'm not inclined to avail myself of free trials of things I know I will never buy), but I'm also not enthused about getting it from the library if it eventually comes to DVD.

Frankly, I've come to the point where I may just have to accept that Star Trek has left me behind. Discovery has never sounded like something that would interest me. Picard seems to be going a direction I find questionable. The new movies are OK, but don't feel like real Star Trek. (And the fact that they are even considering letting Tarantino make an R-Rated Tarantino-Trek tells me a lot about how much the owners of Trek care about the audience I represent. Which is perfectly fair if people like me no longer make up enough of the audience, but still leaves me out.)

And I just recently discovered that the Trek novels, that have carried on the story from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, and which I have been enjoying, are likely done after the next Voyager novel (which has been delayed massively as it is). After that, their novel slate looks to be solely NuTrek movie stuff, Discovery stuff, Picard stuff (and possibly novels for whatever other things CBS All Access adds to their lineup), with occasional TOS novels which may head the route of including stuff to fold it into Discovery's universe.

In that climate, even if I found Picard acceptable, it seems highly unlikely I would find it enough to my liking to justify bothering to cling to the Trek universe going forward. Probably best to just accept that Trek isn't being made for me any more, and just make do with the hours upon hours of shows and movies, and hundreds of books, that I already have.

[Parrylakks Neko Samurai Find all posts View Profile Close Parrylakks]

I can understand where you're coming from, Ed, one of my brothers feels very much the same way. Being unable to share Picard with his children like our father shared TNG/DS9/Voyager with us has diminished much of his interest in it at all. He's also not one for R rated material in general, so he's not sure if he even wants to watch it on his own. So yeah, I can definitely understand the content issues on the face of content itself. I just don't agree with the people who say it doesn't make in world sense.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Happy 90th to Shatner!

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[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Here's a maybe fun question. How many parts can Data be safely divided into?



I believe from Nemesis we know that B4 (and hence Data's) arms, legs, torso, and head (seen in various episodes also) are easily separated and put back together (like a Lego), but I thought his hands come off too. Is that right? Anything else?

EDIT: this (Lore's first episode?) might answer it. If so, his feet are separable too.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

Happy 90th to Shatner!

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Happy birthday to the big guy! I actually had that as a reminder in my phone's calendar lol.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

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[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Happy First Contact Day. Just 42 years to go!



Of course, there's a good chance we're in the Mirror universe and Cochrane is going to shoot those Vulcans.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Inside the heartbreaking conservatorship battle of a ‘Star Trek’ legend