Titans, CANCELLED

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

The question is always, which comics are going to sell?

Look at the list of the comics that sell for DC. There are only 16 titles on it.

Batman
Detective Comics
Superman
Action Comics
Justice League
Wonder Woman
Flash
Green Lantern
Titans
Teen Titans
Nightwing
Harley Quinn
Red Hood
Suicide Squad
Aquaman
Green Arrow

You can talk all you want to about launching a Blue Lanterns title with Kyle, or whatever other title isn't on this list and that has with Kyle in it, because you love Kyle and you "just know" it'll sell. But come on. It ain't gonna sell.

Titans is on the short list of DC titles that sell.

The correct conclusion is very easy to draw.

[Big Blue Lantern Corps Honor Guard Find all posts View Profile Close Big Blue Lantern]

The question is always, which comics are going to sell?

Look at the list of the comics that sell for DC. There are only 16 titles on it.

Batman
Detective Comics
Superman
Action Comics
Justice League
Wonder Woman
Flash
Green Lantern
Titans
Teen Titans
Nightwing
Harley Quinn
Red Hood
Suicide Squad
Aquaman
Green Arrow

You can talk all you want to about launching a Blue Lanterns title with Kyle, or whatever other title isn't on this list and that has with Kyle in it, because you love Kyle and you "just know" it'll sell. But come on. It ain't gonna sell.

Titans is on the short list of DC titles that sell.

The correct conclusion is very easy to draw.

I don't know where you got that list, but Titans, the B-team TT title, got outsold by Deathstroke and Suicide Squad last month. Green Arrow is selling horribly, which is why it's headed for cancellation and rebooting. Titans is selling in the same range that Green Lanterns was in its last months. Its not a special title.

I'd be fine with Kyle returning to a New Guardians-type of book that lasts for 40 issues. That was a far better showcase for Kyle than being a stop-gap scout leader. Most comics don't last beyond 50 issues these days, so I don't expect a juggernaut.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

I don't know where you got that list, but Titans, the B-team TT title, got outsold by Deathstroke and Suicide Squad last month. Green Arrow is selling horribly, which is why it's headed for cancellation and rebooting. Titans is selling in the same range that Green Lanterns was in its last months. Its not a special title.

I'd be fine with Kyle returning to a New Guardians-type of book that lasts for 40 issues. That was a far better showcase for Kyle than being a stop-gap scout leader. Most comics don't last beyond 50 issues these days, so I don't expect a juggernaut.

You're just making my point. EVEN SOME OF THE TITLES ON THAT LIST ARE SOFT!

So you want Kyle to star in a comic that runs for three years and then gets canceled because of low sales. BUT THEN WHAT? Will it be, hey, let's do that again?

DC has to stop fucking around like that and seek a permanent solution. I think they've already figured that out, even if you haven't.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

Something that a lot of fanboys don't get is that every time a character stars in an ongoing that flops, he emerges from it with more accumulated damage.

If you go by what's said on the message boards, you'd think that the Martian Manhunter was an enormously popular character. If you suggest any changes in him that might help make him sell, his fanboys act like you've slapped their mother's face. Apparently DC listens to that bullshit and keeps trying him out again with no changes, and expecting a different result.

But we all know the definition on insanity, don't we? When a new MM title is launched, the market rolls its eyes.

The idea that you can keep doing that without damaging a character is, frankly, stupid.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

Personally, I'm fine with some characters just not being cut out for headlining a title. I'd rather have the Martian Manhunter we've known for years being a supporting character only, than have the character "revamped" into something that bears little resemblance to what came before in an effort to make him something that can successfully headline a title. If you're going to go that route, why not just make a new character?

But it is a judgement call. Sometimes there are more subtle changes, or some kind of logical character development of the existing character, that can actually make them more marketable without basically overwriting them with something totally new that just has the same name. That kind of thing can be great.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

Personally, I'm fine with some characters just not being cut out for headlining a title. I'd rather have the Martian Manhunter we've known for years being a supporting character only, than have the character "revamped" into something that bears little resemblance to what came before in an effort to make him something that can successfully headline a title. If you're going to go that route, why not just make a new character?

But it is a judgement call. Sometimes there are more subtle changes, or some kind of logical character development of the existing character, that can actually make them more marketable without basically overwriting them with something totally new that just has the same name. That kind of thing can be great.

Ed, it's always about selling comics, and nothing else. If the Martian Manhunter can be changed such that he sells comics, you or someone else might object because it ruins your childhood, but DC would want to do it. Childhood memories aren't putting any money in their pockets.

They need to stop launching new ongoings with him that are just like the previous versions. The result will never improve for as long as they do that. They MUST change some things about him.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

Ed, it's always about selling comics, and nothing else. If the Martian Manhunter can be changed such that he sells comics, you or someone else might object because it ruins your childhood, but DC would want to do it. Childhood memories aren't putting any money in their pockets.

They need to stop launching new ongoings with him that are just like the previous versions. The result will never improve for as long as they do that. They MUST change some things about him.

Personally, I would think that long-term it might be harder to get people invested in any character if they develop a reputation for making major changes to them whenever sales drop. I'm not sure what the benefit is to keeping the name of a character if you are going to change them dramatically enough that they are essentially a new character. Why not just invent an actual new character at that point?

But really, this might be another of those situations where we might be closer in our opinions than we think. It all comes down to what kind of changes are being considered, and how they would be handled.

If Martian Manhunter is suddenly no longer from Mars (he's a delusional human who thinks he is), can't shapeshift or read minds, and just has a bunch of green tattoos instead of actually having green skin, I'd seriously question why they bothered to keep the name. But I suspect you would question such a direction as well.

If they just have him somehow overcome his weakness to fire, but in the process lose access to SOME of his many, many powers, I'd probably be fine with that, if it was done in a good story.

And again, I think it would be fine if they just stopped trying to launch ongoings starring him. They have a TON of characters in their shared universe, and not all of them NEED to be able to carry an ongoing title. If he works better as a supporting character (which IMHO seems to be the case) then the answer might not be to drastically change him to try to squeeze an ongoing out of HIM, but to just leave him in a supporting role, and look elsewhere for a headliner...

[Michael Heide Heide Finition Find all posts View Profile Close Michael Heide]

The new Martian Manhunter book by Orlando and Rossmo is pretty decent.

[Big Blue Lantern Corps Honor Guard Find all posts View Profile Close Big Blue Lantern]

You're just making my point. EVEN SOME OF THE TITLES ON THAT LIST ARE SOFT!

So you want Kyle to star in a comic that runs for three years and then gets canceled because of low sales. BUT THEN WHAT? Will it be, hey, let's do that again?

DC has to stop fucking around like that and seek a permanent solution. I think they've already figured that out, even if you haven't.

I simply can't agree with this idea that a character can only be successful if he or she headlines a single title that goes on for years and years. That may have been the benchmark 30-40 years ago, but it's no longer applicable. Characters are rebooted, retooled, and grouped together on a regular basis. The successful ones have a place, whether it's their own books, an ensemble, or a crossover. Kyle has been regularly published for 25 years now, so I see no imperative to scramble for any kind of solution.

To celebrate Kyle's quarter-century of publication, I'd like to see something like a 6-8 issue mini-series that retells his origin, a book where he reunites with Alan and Jade for a short time, a story where he becomes Ion again, or a team-up with the Flash(es). If there's a hiatus between that an the time that he makes his way into the Morrison GL title, that's not a big deal.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

You can call a comic that fails after 40 issues of publication a "success" if you want to, and thus define "success" downward. But you're missing the point about what that does to the character. It damages him and makes it harder for him to sell comics in the future.

I posted a thread here a while back in which I suggested that DC launch a line of recurring minis, for characters who can't sell ongoings. I don't know why they don't do that. It seems like the obvious solution to the problem.

But still, I don't know why you'd want to see Kyle in a mini every three years instead of in Titans every month. I get it that you didn't like the supporting cast of third-stringers in Titans. Apparently DC didn't either, so they canceled it when it was selling well above the cancellation level.

I think they're going to fix that problem with a relaunch, and that Titans is going to get a good cast that includes Cyborg and some others. But if for some reason you object to Kyle being in Titans then, I don't want to hear about it.

Anyway, Kyle can appear in Titans and ALSO appear in an occasional mini. Those two venues for him would not be mutually exclusive. In fact they'd complement each other.

And Ed, you can urge DC to stop trying to make money off the Martian Manhunter, but they won't follow your advice. Saying "I like this character depicted in such a way that he can't sell comics" will never taken seriously. They don't care what you like about a character who doesn't sell. They care about selling comics.

That goes for Adam Strange too.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

And Ed, you can urge DC to stop trying to make money off the Martian Manhunter, but they won't follow your advice. Saying "I like this character depicted in such a way that he can't sell comics" will never taken seriously. They don't care what you like about a character who doesn't sell. They care about selling comics.

That goes for Adam Strange too.

If they only care about selling comics, why do they keep trying to make a Martian Manhunter solo title, when it doesn't seem to work? What if the way to sell more comics is to sell a title headlining somebody else, not keep trying with the same guy? My point is that there is no reason to keep trying to force that specific character into a headlining position if he works better as a supporting character. I just don't see the point in making drastic changes to an existing character to try to force them into a headlining position when there are other characters that might work better, or a NEW character might work better.

To be honest, I love your idea of a series of minis for second tier characters that are popular enough as supporting characters that people occasionally want to see them in the spotlight, even if they couldn't carry an ongoing title.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

If they only care about selling comics, why do they keep trying to make a Martian Manhunter solo title, when it doesn't seem to work? What if the way to sell more comics is to sell a title headlining somebody else, not keep trying with the same guy? . . .

Yeah, I don't buy that either, at least not 100%. Pet projects like DiDio's OMAC and such prove that there's still a willingness to publish for fun or the interest of TPTB.

When they say "we wanted to bring back so and so" or "we're excited to let writer X bring his own story," I'm sure there are times it's just corporate speak for "the accountants say," but I don't believe these guys are so far from being comic fans that this is always the case and they're always lying about wanting to tell a certain story.

Comics, like movies, music, and regular books are a commercial art. Both aspects are there; commercial and art. There's always a tension between artistic expression and marketability. Sometimes, it may lean heavily more to the commercial, where you get a movie that feels like they were entirely made from a focus group and executive notes, but it's never just that.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

Why do they keep trying out the MM in solo comics without changing anything? Because they think all they need is to do it BETTER. Which is silly. But as William Blake said, the fool who persists in his folly becomes wise. They'll figure out eventually that they need to make some changes.

And guys, it's a publicly traded company. That means it exists to make a profit for its stockholders. The people who buy stock in DC don't give a shit about keeping the Martian Manhunter the way he is because they like him that way. They want a return on their investment, and they want it now.

[Mister Ed Horse of a Different Color Find all posts View Profile Close Mister Ed]

By your logic, they should be revamping every single character in their gigantic catalog to make them able to support an ongoing. You seem to be arguing that if Martian Manhunter can't support an ongoing solo title as he is, then he MUST be changed, but that misses the option (which is used with the VAST majority of characters they own) of NOT having him support an ongoing solo title.

If they want a new ongoing solo title that sells, why is it a BETTER option to drastically change Martian Manhunter for one than to try a different character, or to create a new character? I'm not arguing that it is impossible that a drastically altered MM might better support his own ongoing than the current version. I'm not convinced that it would, but I don't doubt the possibility.

Somehow this has been made about MM, but he's really just a convenient illustration. It isn't like I'm some kind of rabid MM fanboy. I like the character, and have usually enjoyed him as part of a Justice League line-up. I've never bought any of his solo titles, though, and don't forsee doing so (whether or not they drastically change him). If the character were killed off and I never saw him again I doubt I'd miss him much after a short while.

I just am not clear why there is a need to do whatever it takes to make his character support an ongoing. There are SCORES of DC characters that don't have ongoings. In most cases it seems like DC just recognizes this and doesn't try to force the matter. For whatever reason DC keeps trying it with MM (and a few other characters) despite the lack of success. You may well be right that MM would need drastic changes to support an ongoing, but the question then becomes, why does he need to? It that the best strategy for selling copies on a new ongoing title? Or would it be better to try another character or make a new one?

In general I'm against making drastic changes to a character simply to boost sales, not because I'm super attached to all these characters, but because I feel like it damages any hope of long-term brand loyalty. If a company develops a reputation for treating their characters that way, I'd think it would discourage new readers from even bothering to get invested in them, since they know that next time sales dip, that character will become something unrecognizable.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

By your logic, they should be revamping every single character in their gigantic catalog to make them able to support an ongoing. . . There are SCORES of DC characters that don't have ongoings. In most cases it seems like DC just recognizes this and doesn't try to force the matter. . .

Yep. Vibe. Bat Lash. B'wanna Beast. Detective Chimp. Even teams like Freedom Fighters. I think all of these are characters that DC has no illusions are going to be indefinite ongoings, but their bizarreness and rarity makes them fun enough to appear in backups or occasional minis with interest.