Hal Jordan & the Green Lantern Corps #22

[Kane2814 Weaponer of Qward Find all posts View Profile Close Kane2814]

SPOILERS AHEAD, naturally....
-- Nice to see some real teamwork going on here. Hal does apparently function better as a field commander than head of the GLC. I would agree with Venditti on this.
-- Nice to see Bolfunga, but total missed opportunity seeing the Bolfunga / Mogo reunion. (unless they're saving that for later)
-- Hal actually addresses Arisia!! (who was conveniently not even on-panel) How long before they're actually exchanging dialogue?? (and poor Ch'p is the only one of the "GLC" team to stay dead ....)
-- Nice starting point juggling multiple storylines. Now, who could the murderer be??

[Ωmega Man Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Ωmega Man]

I don't understand why Kyle would offer what's her name her old ring back when he knows what the future holds if certain things happen. I hate it every time they pair him with Soranik. If he's gonna be that selfish to risk the fate of the future it's not in-character at all. Yeah he cried when Sarko died after finding out the truth, but it's not like he already had memories and was super attached enough to wanna try having the kid for realsies. It'd be like John Conner showing up as the badguy in Terminator 1 completely grown up and evil, and his mom killing him and finding out the truth later. Would she still try and have the baby? Or feel like a parent who lost a child when she hadn't even had a baby yet?

Donna's alive again. Jade presumably will be too at some point when the Pre New52 JSA returns. Kyle just needs to go back to Earth.

~//V\\~

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

They could just try to raise the kid right and make him aware that he if he's not careful he'll turn.

[Ωmega Man Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Ωmega Man]

....

John Stewart can have sex with Korugarians and make babies... he was already married to one. Kyle's stock will go down in the broader DCU as soon as he and Soranik are attached at the hip again.

Kyle can be a co-star of a GLC title without being attached to the legacy of Sinestro and his daughter. Like he's gonna be reduced to being the GL who's banging the leader of the Sinestro Corps and that's it. That'll be his sole purpose for being in the book.

But offering her a GL ring back?!? That's literally keeping with the events that lead up to Sarko being born and going evil. If one Sinner gets a ring the rest won't be far behind. Just common sense there.

~//V\\~

[Star-Lantern Weaponer of Qward Find all posts View Profile Close Star-Lantern]

(and poor Ch'p is the only one of the "GLC" team to stay dead ....)

If you're talking about the team from the '80s comics, Katma is also dead and looks to stay that way. Unless you count her brief semi-resurrection in Mosaic that was quickly done away with... which I don't.

I hate it every time they pair him with Soranik.

Donna's alive again. Jade presumably will be too at some point when the Pre New52 JSA returns. Kyle just needs to go back to Earth.

Just out of curiosity, what is so bad about Kyle Rayner being with Soranik, from your perspective? Is it that she's an alien, or something else? I don't see creative putting him with Donna Troy. The only way I see that happening is if they both wind up on a Titans team, which I suppose is possible, but there's nothing suggesting that will happen. And even then, it kinda' seems like a long shot that they'd revisit that relationship. I think it's more or less a forgotten element from waaay back.

I think Kyle Rayner's stock in the DC Universe is already incredibly low at the moment. Outside of the Green Lantern books, he has absolutely no relevance, and he kinda' has little relevance even over there, as he has to compete with a lot of other characters in Hal Jordan's book for some spotlight. That's not really a dig on the character, just pointing out the situation as I see it.

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

Yeah, to me it makes sense at least. Kyle is a lover, so he "needs" a girlfriend. My favorite (Jenny) has been retconned out of existence. Donna was alright, but it would take a lot to work her back in. That leaves Carol (who I think was always a bad fit) or Soranik from recent years (like the ones that most readers would know).

Offering her the GL ring was dumb, but I don't see that Sarko thing as a problem. They've already changed the future by their awareness of it but even if they take the mindset that the child is doomed to become evil no matter what (which I don't personally buy), they could just use protection. If I felt convinced that I really loved an ex and needed to reunite with her, I wouldn't let that stop me. I'd just make sure that wasn't the outcome.

In my GL figs, I have Hal clutching Arisia and Kyle with Soranik.

[Ωmega Man Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Ωmega Man]

Just out of curiosity, what is so bad about Kyle Rayner being with Soranik, from your perspective? Is it that she's an alien, or something else? I don't see creative putting him with Donna Troy. The only way I see that happening is if they both wind up on a Titans team, which I suppose is possible, but there's nothing suggesting that will happen. And even then, it kinda' seems like a long shot that they'd revisit that relationship. I think it's more or less a forgotten element from waaay back.

I think Kyle Rayner's stock in the DC Universe is already incredibly low at the moment. Outside of the Green Lantern books, he has absolutely no relevance, and he kinda' has little relevance even over there, as he has to compete with a lot of other characters in Hal Jordan's book for some spotlight. That's not really a dig on the character, just pointing out the situation as I see it.

During GLC Recharged when Soranik was introduced I really kinda liked the character. Badass tattoos [the ones on her back were forgotten], the skill of a surgical pro, etc... it wasn't until Rage of the Red Lanterns when Sinestro having a daughter was made clear by Atrocitus. I knew immediately it was gonna be Soranik.

I think like what happened with John and Katma, it *might* have been good for a minute but it quickly turned to shit. Now Katma doesn't even get a mention and there's a whole era of John adventures that will NEVER be mentioned again. I don't want that for Kyle. What could possibly happen next... Kyle getting maimed or put in a wheelchair? And if he's only around to be her boyfriend or whatever it kinda cheapens his presence. John doesn't need to lead the GLC to make him important and Kyle doesn't need to be banging the leader of the Sinestro Corps to be relevant in a GLC title. And the writers of GL/GLC comics need to stop with the showing of future events and scenarios so other writers can come in and pick up on the horrible plot lines. Nobody asked for Space Jesus Kyle, and I can't think of anybody really who wants to see him have a kid be it with an alien or an Earth girl.

Superman and Batman have kids now... that's enough. Remember when Powergirl had a kid? And Aquaman? Donna Troy? And Wally West? Nothing good comes from it, and despite my hatred for Damian Wayne in Batman comics... Jon isn't a bad choice for Superboy since they can't figure out what made the clone so popular twenty years ago.

I think Kyle's stock is down ATM because he isn't being used to his full potential. The character can sell comics. He didn't even have to wear a ring for a time to do it. He used to be featured in several minis, was a member of the JLA and adult Titans, etc. Now... he's been reduced to starring in a single title with several other co-stars with the exact same powers and NONE of his past experience [yet all of his costumes are featured in-panel like his history is somehow intact]. If TPTB insist on keeping him in space, joining another cosmic team like the Omega Men and taking ques from Guardians of the Galaxy wouldn't be so bad. If they want something else but not Kyle on a Titans or League spinoff they could always save Jason Todd from his current Outlaws series and bring back the Challengers from Beyond.

It kinda seems like the whole 90's influence on comics is dying out at DC. Tim Drake's been taken off the board after getting retrofitted into a shell of the character he was. Same thing with Conner Kent/Superboy. Kyle's getting less and less panel time. Bart Allen will likely NEVER be Impulse again....

~//V\\~

[Space Cop The Dandy Find all posts View Profile Close Space Cop]

...And the writers of GL/GLC comics need to stop with the showing of future events and scenarios so other writers can come in and pick up on the horrible plot lines...

This part I agree with. A similar thing happened in Doctor Who and some prophecies are fulfilled, some slightly changed, and some dropped, but the whole thing is unnecessary. Tell the story you want and don't bind the hands of the next guy who wants to tell a story.

[Star-Lantern Weaponer of Qward Find all posts View Profile Close Star-Lantern]

I think like what happened with John and Katma, it *might* have been good for a minute but it quickly turned to shit. Now Katma doesn't even get a mention and there's a whole era of John adventures that will NEVER be mentioned again. I don't want that for Kyle. What could possibly happen next... Kyle getting maimed or put in a wheelchair? And if he's only around to be her boyfriend or whatever it kinda cheapens his presence. John doesn't need to lead the GLC to make him important and Kyle doesn't need to be banging the leader of the Sinestro Corps to be relevant in a GLC title. And the writers of GL/GLC comics need to stop with the showing of future events and scenarios so other writers can come in and pick up on the horrible plot lines. Nobody asked for Space Jesus Kyle, and I can't think of anybody really who wants to see him have a kid be it with an alien or an Earth girl.

I don't blame John's less than incredible treatment by writers/editorial on Katma Tui. I don't think she had anything to do with that. John was put in a wheelchair because, at the time, DC or Ron Marz didn't want anyone in any kind of position that could threaten/compete with/whatever Kyle Rayner. So if fans asked, "Why isn't John Green Lantern instead of this new guy," they could point out that he's unable because he's incapacitated.

That said, while I don't attribute any of that to Katma, if it was my decision, I wouldn't have had John marry her, simply because it limits potential possibilities in the future. If ever someone would want to put John with another character, you would either have to have a dramatic shattered relationship storyline, or kill Katma... both of which wouldn't be good for the John character, in my opinion, because he will have a dark cloud hanging over him no matter what you do. John wasn't necessarily a side character at the time but as long as DC had Hal Jordan active, I believe they felt they could afford to take risks and do whatever with John Stewart, for better or worse.

Superman and Batman have kids now...

Yeah, I don't like that idea. But, then again, maybe I would if I had children (which I don't). I know a lot of Superman's comic reading fans are likely dads themselves, so maybe it speaks more to them. Personally, I see it limiting things in the future. For Superman, how are you going to get rid of that damn kid without doing some hugely depressing storyline that will haunt Superman for the rest of his days? I guess you could just reboot at some point and say he's not there anymore, but that's pretty cheap. I dunno'. I guess there are more delicate ways to deal with it, and for their sake, I hope DC has already thought of a trap door for that kid when they inevitably feel like he is limiting the Superman character.

I think Kyle's stock is down ATM because he isn't being used to his full potential. The character can sell comics. He didn't even have to wear a ring for a time to do it. He used to be featured in several minis, was a member of the JLA and adult Titans, etc. Now... he's been reduced to starring in a single title with several other co-stars with the exact same powers and NONE of his past experience [yet all of his costumes are featured in-panel like his history is somehow intact]. If TPTB insist on keeping him in space, joining another cosmic team like the Omega Men and taking ques from Guardians of the Galaxy wouldn't be so bad. If they want something else but not Kyle on a Titans or League spinoff they could always save Jason Todd from his current Outlaws series and bring back the Challengers from Beyond.

Well, it's not inherently the character's fault. It's all about what DC's current plans are, and I don't think Kyle Rayner factors into any of them in a any significant way. It seems to me like DC is trying to establish Jessica Cruz, while trying (and failing with some) to appease fans of EVERYONE ELSE (but primarily Hal Jordan) with the Hal Jordan book while they're focusing on Jessica.

It kinda seems like the whole 90's influence on comics is dying out at DC. Tim Drake's been taken off the board after getting retrofitted into a shell of the character he was. Same thing with Conner Kent/Superboy. Kyle's getting less and less panel time. Bart Allen will likely NEVER be Impulse again....

Oh certainly. That's been going on for some time. One just has to look at the biggest example, Wally West, to see it. I don't think the current powers that be have much of an appreciation for '90s DC.

-----

As for the topic at hand, I took a glance at the current issue and it looked better than most of the others I've seen in this series. Fighting space pirates is a MUCH needed departure from what usually goes on in this series, but it's depressing when you realize it's only for set up for a story about these different colored Emotional Corps again.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

I don't blame John's less than incredible treatment by writers/editorial on Katma Tui. I don't think she had anything to do with that. John was put in a wheelchair because, at the time, DC or Ron Marz didn't want anyone in any kind of position that could threaten/compete with/whatever Kyle Rayner. So if fans asked, "Why isn't John Green Lantern instead of this new guy," they could point out that he's unable because he's incapacitated.

That said, while I don't attribute any of that to Katma, if it was my decision, I wouldn't have had John marry her, simply because it limits potential possibilities in the future. If ever someone would want to put John with another character, you would either have to have a dramatic shattered relationship storyline, or kill Katma... both of which wouldn't be good for the John character, in my opinion, because he will have a dark cloud hanging over him no matter what you do. John wasn't necessarily a side character at the time but as long as DC had Hal Jordan active, I believe they felt they could afford to take risks and do whatever with John Stewart, for better or worse.



Yeah, I don't like that idea. But, then again, maybe I would if I had children (which I don't). I know a lot of Superman's comic reading fans are likely dads themselves, so maybe it speaks more to them. Personally, I see it limiting things in the future. For Superman, how are you going to get rid of that damn kid without doing some hugely depressing storyline that will haunt Superman for the rest of his days? I guess you could just reboot at some point and say he's not there anymore, but that's pretty cheap. I dunno'. I guess there are more delicate ways to deal with it, and for their sake, I hope DC has already thought of a trap door for that kid when they inevitably feel like he is limiting the Superman character.



Well, it's not inherently the character's fault. It's all about what DC's current plans are, and I don't think Kyle Rayner factors into any of them in a any significant way. It seems to me like DC is trying to establish Jessica Cruz, while trying (and failing with some) to appease fans of EVERYONE ELSE (but primarily Hal Jordan) with the Hal Jordan book while they're focusing on Jessica.



Oh certainly. That's been going on for some time. One just has to look at the biggest example, Wally West, to see it. I don't think the current powers that be have much of an appreciation for '90s DC.

-----

As for the topic at hand, I took a glance at the current issue and it looked better than most of the others I've seen in this series. Fighting space pirates is a MUCH needed departure from what usually goes on in this series, but it's depressing when you realize it's only for set up for a story about these different colored Emotional Corps again.

Good points there. They also claimed that Ganthet offered Guy the last ring but -- get this -- HE TURNED IT DOWN! Yeah, sure. He'd do that all right. Again, it was so that Kyle could be the only Lantern.

The lengths DC went to to protect and promote Kyle were unprecedented. No character has ever gotten such treatment. When Karl Kesel took John out of a wheelchair in The Final Night, Ron Marz turned around and put him right back into one. Nobody was going to compete with Kyle!

Your mentioning Jessica and Kyle in the same breath made me realize that Kyle used to be DC's (half) Latino super-hero. So why add Cruz? I think you're right. They saw her as Kyle's replacement. After pushing him so hard and for so long, and with so little to show for it, they gave up on him as a Lantern. Plus, as a woman, Cruz is a twofer.

Now though they've also given up on Kyle's being a deity! So the mess has grown even messier.

Notice how many stars in television dramas are unmarried and have no children. Why is that that? It's because television long ago figured out that in most scenarios, spouses and kids clutter things up. People who write comics often wrongly see spouses and kids as adding interest and story possibilities, when it fact they usually don't. They're a distraction.

Wally belongs in a Flash team title. Barry shouldn't be in it. People see enough of him.

[Star-Lantern Weaponer of Qward Find all posts View Profile Close Star-Lantern]

Good points there. They also claimed that Ganthet offered Guy the last ring but -- get this -- HE TURNED IT DOWN! Yeah, sure. He'd do that all right. Again, it was so that Kyle could be the only Lantern.

The lengths DC went to to protect and promote Kyle were unprecedented. No character has ever gotten such treatment. When Karl Kesel took John out of a wheelchair in The Final Night, Ron Marz turned around and put him right back into one. Nobody was going to compete with Kyle!

Your mentioning Jessica and Kyle in the same breath made me realize that Kyle used to be DC's (half) Latino super-hero. So why add Cruz? I think you're right. They saw her as Kyle's replacement. After pushing him so hard and for so long, and with so little to show for it, they gave up on him as a Lantern. Plus, as a woman, Cruz is a twofer.

Now though they've also given up on Kyle's being a deity! So the mess has grown even messier.

Notice how many stars in television dramas are unmarried and have no children. Why is that that? It's because television long ago figured out that in most scenarios, spouses and kids clutter things up. People who write comics often wrongly see spouses and kids as adding interest and story possibilities, when it fact they usually don't. They're a distraction.

Wally belongs in a Flash team title. Barry shouldn't be in it. People see enough of him.

I don't want to imply that I think Kyle Rayner was a failed idea, because I don't believe that. I think it was just the right time to do something else when the whole Geoff Johns thing began.

About Kyle Rayner being latino. Because that was retroactively added to his character, and because it's typically a non-issue for the character, I don't see him as great representation for that demographic. His background is so easily ignored, and in some ways, lacking credibility because that wasn't the original intention with the character, that, to me, Kyle Rayner is latino if you want him to be, and not latino if you don't want him to be. Personally, I just see him as your typical white male character.

Because of that, I don't see Jessica Cruz as any replacement for Kyle Rayner. I think Johns created Jessica because he wanted his ideas used in broader media (his concepts get the notoriety and he likely has himself in a position where he collects royalties from their use), and he knew he'd have a better chance of Jessica being used if she was a woman and a minority, because another white male Green Lantern would have nothing to offer in terms of demographics that DC couldn't get with one of their numerous, better established white male heroes. There's a large latino demographic in America, so Geoff Johns went with that. Jessica will be appearing in the DC Superhero Girls show slated for Cartoon Network, and there is reason to believe she will appear in the DC Cinematic Universe, so everything is working out just as I'm saying. Considering all of that, I'm pretty sure Kyle was a non-issue in Jessica's creation.

I agree that Marz (and DC) went to huge and silly lengths to protect Kyle Rayner. They seemed to be under the belief that one of the things bad for Green Lantern was that a lot of different people used the same powers, which, to me, is a completely wrong headed notion. The main problem with Green Lantern at the time was that Gerard Jones, for whatever reason (be it editorial or a lack of ideas), got to a point when he was writing boring stories in the main title.

Regarding main characters having children and spouses, those can work if the characters are created to have them, or the story is clearly leading up to them having them and there is a firm plan in place for that. However, Superman and Batman weren't created to have kids, so they can limit and complicate things for the characters.

[Trey Strain Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Trey Strain]

I don't want to imply that I think Kyle Rayner was a failed idea, because I don't believe that. I think it was just the right time to do something else when the whole Geoff Johns thing began.

About Kyle Rayner being latino. Because that was retroactively added to his character, and because it's typically a non-issue for the character, I don't see him as great representation for that demographic. His background is so easily ignored, and in some ways, lacking credibility because that wasn't the original intention with the character, that, to me, Kyle Rayner is latino if you want him to be, and not latino if you don't want him to be. Personally, I just see him as your typical white male character.

Because of that, I don't see Jessica Cruz as any replacement for Kyle Rayner. I think Johns created Jessica because he wanted his ideas used in broader media (his concepts get the notoriety and he likely has himself in a position where he collects royalties from their use), and he knew he'd have a better chance of Jessica being used if she was a woman and a minority, because another white male Green Lantern would have nothing to offer in terms of demographics that DC couldn't get with one of their numerous, better established white male heroes. There's a large latino demographic in America, so Geoff Johns went with that. Jessica will be appearing in the DC Superhero Girls show slated for Cartoon Network, and there is reason to believe she will appear in the DC Cinematic Universe, so everything is working out just as I'm saying. Considering all of that, I'm pretty sure Kyle was a non-issue in Jessica's creation.

I agree that Marz (and DC) went to huge and silly lengths to protect Kyle Rayner. They seemed to be under the belief that one of the things bad for Green Lantern was that a lot of different people used the same powers, which, to me, is a completely wrong headed notion. The main problem with Green Lantern at the time was that Gerard Jones, for whatever reason (be it editorial or a lack of ideas), got to a point when he was writing boring stories in the main title.

Regarding main characters having children and spouses, those can work if the characters are created to have them, or the story is clearly leading up to them having them and there is a firm plan in place for that. However, Superman and Batman weren't created to have kids, so they can limit and complicate things for the characters.

I pretty much concur with all that. I don't think Kyle is necessarily a failure either, but the best place for him is in Titans or Teen Titans as a GL. It's a safe spot and it'll keep him in the public eye.

There are more Latinos than blacks in the U.S., so it makes sense to reach out to them. Green Lantern was simply the wrong place to put Cruz though, and Baz as well. The roster of Earth Lanterns was already overcrowded. The Bat books could accommodate them much better.

Gerard Jones wrote good stories until Kevin Dooley took over as the comic's editor. They clashed immediately, and the stories suffered. Dooley claimed that Hal and the GL mythos were "stale," and DC believed him. Everyone knows the rest.

I've never thought that Sue and Reed's kid added anything to the Fantastic Four. It's just generally a bad idea.

[Ωmega Man Guardian of the Universe Find all posts View Profile Close Ωmega Man]

You guys do know in Kyle's series Marz had plans for John that were shut down? Editorial wanted no other Lanterns, that wasn't Marz' doing. If you'll remember John was having shown to internalize some GL energy two or three times before exhausting it on Fatality when Jade had a ring. That wasn't the plan originally and Mosaic and his internalized ring would've likely been used in the explanation of his power. Had he attained Guardian level power he'd have helped usher in a new Corps sooner...

I used to think a GLC with Kyle, a Guardian John, and Guy with a ring and Warrior powers both was a cool possibility.

~//V\\~

[Star-Lantern Weaponer of Qward Find all posts View Profile Close Star-Lantern]

I pretty much concur with all that. I don't think Kyle is necessarily a failure either, but the best place for him is in Titans or Teen Titans as a GL. It's a safe spot and it'll keep him in the public eye.

Agree. I think Kyle Rayner has more to offer to the Titans than he does in Green Lantern right now, and the Titans probably have more to offer him. That being relationships with other DC characters, and more of a connection with the DC universe.

There are more Latinos than blacks in the U.S., so it makes sense to reach out to them. Green Lantern was simply the wrong place to put Cruz though, and Baz as well. The roster of Earth Lanterns was already overcrowded. The Bat books could accommodate them much better.

I agree with this, too. Like I said, Johns' ultimate aim was likely to get his creations in TV and movies and cash in on royalties. There are a lot of examples of this, like the Red Lanterns being the main antagonists on the cartoon show, and most of his other characters making appearances, and Atrocitus showing up in the Injustice 2 game. I don't know how much stroke he has with Batman now, and he likely had none to very little at the time he created Jessica. Green Lantern, however? At the time he made Baz and Jessica, he was probably at a point where he could do near whatever he wanted with that franchise, hence those characters wound up over there. But yeah, GL is way too crowded now and that's only hurting the franchise. There's just not enough room to showcase all these characters.

Gerard Jones wrote good stories until Kevin Dooley took over as the comic's editor. They clashed immediately, and the stories suffered. Dooley claimed that Hal and the GL mythos were "stale," and DC believed him. Everyone knows the rest.

Yeah, I heard about his difficulties with Kevin Dooley. He said he got along great with Andy Helfer and the stories were A LOT better when Helfer was editing. Actually, from what I remember reading, the Mosaic concept was actually Andy Helfer's idea, or he and Jones constructed it together.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker Moisture Farmer Find all posts View Profile Close Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

I always liked Helfer. He seemed to get it. Dooley? Fuck THAT guy.