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Old 01-21-2019, 07:31 PM   #1
Andrew NDB
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Default Titans, CANCELLED

So much for the love for Kyle in 2019.

https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/01/20/...7AlLNfhy6w1RIQ

This is exactly what I was afraid of. Throw Kyle in a fucking Titans book, then it gets cancelled, now the takeaway is "Well Kyle can't even sell in a Titans book!"
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:59 PM   #2
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That does give the impression there is a stink on him. When to be fair, they had to already have had a cancellation date in mind when they decided to add Kyle to the title for the last few issues.
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:46 PM   #3
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That does give the impression there is a stink on him. When to be fair, they had to already have had a cancellation date in mind when they decided to add Kyle to the title for the last few issues.
That's fucked up. Why throw Kyle on the ship of the damned?
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:20 PM   #4
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I think sometimes when the editor and creative team knows a title is on its way out, they throw in another character as a hail mary to add a few sales. Maybe to show as proof to their bosses they tried to salavage the title? So they can't be blamed for the cancellation and accused of not doing tried and true tactics to gain readership? I know I would do that as a CYA for my job.

Or maybe they just wanted to do it for a goof and knew they had a few lame duck issues left to do it in.
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:08 PM   #5
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Could just be for some added exposure. If they do have other plans it's a way to remind readers that he exists.
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Skywalker View Post
That does give the impression there is a stink on him. When to be fair, they had to already have had a cancellation date in mind when they decided to add Kyle to the title for the last few issues.
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That's fucked up. Why throw Kyle on the ship of the damned?
I doubt they knew it was going to be cancelled for sure but they had to have known it was trending in that direction. Adding Kyle was probably their last try to make it sell again though usually they try this kind of thing with a Batman guest appearance.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:02 AM   #7
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Or maybe the creator just wanted to write Kyle?
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:17 AM   #8
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should of Made Kyle Great Again....................... just saying at this point what harm could it do?
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:54 AM   #9
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The way the series is ending and with numerous references to saving the Multiverse.... I'm still betting this leads into some new form of the Challengers from Beyond.

Teen Titans will likely get cancelled soon as well with Young Justice and Bendis' Wonder Comics taking the more youthful characters and doing something with them. We'll probably get a new Titans volume [no Teen, just 'Titans'] that looks more like what's being done with the team on the DCU streaming service, just without the tease of Superboy. Nightwing, Raven, Starfire, and Beast Boy along with two or three more characters to spice things up. Doubt we'll see Hawk & Dove among the roster, hoping Bendis or one of his minions brings that series back under the Wonder Comics line...

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Old 01-27-2019, 06:58 PM   #10
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In the meantime Kyle will be guest starring in this week's Justice League Annual #1:

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The Source Wall has degraded too much, and the League must patch the hole right now or the whole Multiverse will collapse! Our heroes scramble for a solution and turn to the only thing that might work: the Omega Titans! The only problem? They killed the Entropy Titan back in JUSTICE LEAGUE: NO JUSTICE. Whoops...but never fear! Kyle Rayner, Miss Martian and Steel-from the non-planet-eating Titans team-guest-star with a plan to create a new Entropy Titan...one that's so crazy it just might work.
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Old 01-27-2019, 07:17 PM   #11
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You can tell this started out as an attempt to boost the sales of Titans. And then they changed their minds and cancelled the book anyway.
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Old 01-29-2019, 06:46 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Andrew NDB View Post
So much for the love for Kyle in 2019.

https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/01/20/...7AlLNfhy6w1RIQ

This is exactly what I was afraid of. Throw Kyle in a fucking Titans book, then it gets cancelled, now the takeaway is "Well Kyle can't even sell in a Titans book!"
It's the B-team title of junior varsity heroes. Whether he was pulled or the book got cancelled, it was still short and painless. He'll eventually make his way into the Morrison GL book or hook up with some other heroes. We just need to be patient.
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Old 01-29-2019, 03:45 PM   #13
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The most recent issue of Titans sold 24,870, which is well above the normal cancellation level of 17K for DCU titles on icv2. So it was canceled because someone thought it could be done better, which is probably true.

Look for Kyle to come back in retooled version of the comic, this time with a higher-wattage supporting cast.
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Old 01-30-2019, 03:18 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
The most recent issue of Titans sold 24,870, which is well above the normal cancellation level of 17K for DCU titles on icv2. So it was canceled because someone thought it could be done better, which is probably true.

Look for Kyle to come back in retooled version of the comic, this time with a higher-wattage supporting cast.
I doubt it. This seems like a move to reunite the TTs with a line-up similar to the live-action/cartoon shows. Plus, Kyle was just responding to a distress call, so it wasn't written like a decision to devote a long period of time to playing den mother. I expect that we'll get an announcement about Justice League Odyssey soon where Starfire (and possibly Cyborg) will be yanked to assume the leadership role(s) with the TTs. Kyle might be in limbo for a short time.
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Old 01-30-2019, 04:08 AM   #15
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Its just as likely he'll protect the Multiverse along with Donna Troy after this team of Titans disbands. And now that Red Hood is a lone outlaw, he's in a position to rejoin the Challengers From Beyond as well.

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Old 01-30-2019, 02:22 PM   #16
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The question is always, which comics are going to sell?

Look at the list of the comics that sell for DC. There are only 16 titles on it.

Batman
Detective Comics
Superman
Action Comics
Justice League
Wonder Woman
Flash
Green Lantern
Titans
Teen Titans
Nightwing
Harley Quinn
Red Hood
Suicide Squad
Aquaman
Green Arrow

You can talk all you want to about launching a Blue Lanterns title with Kyle, or whatever other title isn't on this list and that has with Kyle in it, because you love Kyle and you "just know" it'll sell. But come on. It ain't gonna sell.

Titans is on the short list of DC titles that sell.

The correct conclusion is very easy to draw.

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Old 01-30-2019, 05:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
The question is always, which comics are going to sell?

Look at the list of the comics that sell for DC. There are only 16 titles on it.

Batman
Detective Comics
Superman
Action Comics
Justice League
Wonder Woman
Flash
Green Lantern
Titans
Teen Titans
Nightwing
Harley Quinn
Red Hood
Suicide Squad
Aquaman
Green Arrow

You can talk all you want to about launching a Blue Lanterns title with Kyle, or whatever other title isn't on this list and that has with Kyle in it, because you love Kyle and you "just know" it'll sell. But come on. It ain't gonna sell.

Titans is on the short list of DC titles that sell.

The correct conclusion is very easy to draw.
I don't know where you got that list, but Titans, the B-team TT title, got outsold by Deathstroke and Suicide Squad last month. Green Arrow is selling horribly, which is why it's headed for cancellation and rebooting. Titans is selling in the same range that Green Lanterns was in its last months. Its not a special title.

I'd be fine with Kyle returning to a New Guardians-type of book that lasts for 40 issues. That was a far better showcase for Kyle than being a stop-gap scout leader. Most comics don't last beyond 50 issues these days, so I don't expect a juggernaut.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:19 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Big Blue Lantern View Post
I don't know where you got that list, but Titans, the B-team TT title, got outsold by Deathstroke and Suicide Squad last month. Green Arrow is selling horribly, which is why it's headed for cancellation and rebooting. Titans is selling in the same range that Green Lanterns was in its last months. Its not a special title.

I'd be fine with Kyle returning to a New Guardians-type of book that lasts for 40 issues. That was a far better showcase for Kyle than being a stop-gap scout leader. Most comics don't last beyond 50 issues these days, so I don't expect a juggernaut.
You're just making my point. EVEN SOME OF THE TITLES ON THAT LIST ARE SOFT!

So you want Kyle to star in a comic that runs for three years and then gets canceled because of low sales. BUT THEN WHAT? Will it be, hey, let's do that again?

DC has to stop fucking around like that and seek a permanent solution. I think they've already figured that out, even if you haven't.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:36 PM   #19
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Something that a lot of fanboys don't get is that every time a character stars in an ongoing that flops, he emerges from it with more accumulated damage.

If you go by what's said on the message boards, you'd think that the Martian Manhunter was an enormously popular character. If you suggest any changes in him that might help make him sell, his fanboys act like you've slapped their mother's face. Apparently DC listens to that bullshit and keeps trying him out again with no changes, and expecting a different result.

But we all know the definition on insanity, don't we? When a new MM title is launched, the market rolls its eyes.

The idea that you can keep doing that without damaging a character is, frankly, stupid.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:05 PM   #20
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Personally, I'm fine with some characters just not being cut out for headlining a title. I'd rather have the Martian Manhunter we've known for years being a supporting character only, than have the character "revamped" into something that bears little resemblance to what came before in an effort to make him something that can successfully headline a title. If you're going to go that route, why not just make a new character?

But it is a judgement call. Sometimes there are more subtle changes, or some kind of logical character development of the existing character, that can actually make them more marketable without basically overwriting them with something totally new that just has the same name. That kind of thing can be great.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:48 PM   #21
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Personally, I'm fine with some characters just not being cut out for headlining a title. I'd rather have the Martian Manhunter we've known for years being a supporting character only, than have the character "revamped" into something that bears little resemblance to what came before in an effort to make him something that can successfully headline a title. If you're going to go that route, why not just make a new character?

But it is a judgement call. Sometimes there are more subtle changes, or some kind of logical character development of the existing character, that can actually make them more marketable without basically overwriting them with something totally new that just has the same name. That kind of thing can be great.
Ed, it's always about selling comics, and nothing else. If the Martian Manhunter can be changed such that he sells comics, you or someone else might object because it ruins your childhood, but DC would want to do it. Childhood memories aren't putting any money in their pockets.

They need to stop launching new ongoings with him that are just like the previous versions. The result will never improve for as long as they do that. They MUST change some things about him.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:08 PM   #22
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Ed, it's always about selling comics, and nothing else. If the Martian Manhunter can be changed such that he sells comics, you or someone else might object because it ruins your childhood, but DC would want to do it. Childhood memories aren't putting any money in their pockets.

They need to stop launching new ongoings with him that are just like the previous versions. The result will never improve for as long as they do that. They MUST change some things about him.
Personally, I would think that long-term it might be harder to get people invested in any character if they develop a reputation for making major changes to them whenever sales drop. I'm not sure what the benefit is to keeping the name of a character if you are going to change them dramatically enough that they are essentially a new character. Why not just invent an actual new character at that point?

But really, this might be another of those situations where we might be closer in our opinions than we think. It all comes down to what kind of changes are being considered, and how they would be handled.

If Martian Manhunter is suddenly no longer from Mars (he's a delusional human who thinks he is), can't shapeshift or read minds, and just has a bunch of green tattoos instead of actually having green skin, I'd seriously question why they bothered to keep the name. But I suspect you would question such a direction as well.

If they just have him somehow overcome his weakness to fire, but in the process lose access to SOME of his many, many powers, I'd probably be fine with that, if it was done in a good story.

And again, I think it would be fine if they just stopped trying to launch ongoings starring him. They have a TON of characters in their shared universe, and not all of them NEED to be able to carry an ongoing title. If he works better as a supporting character (which IMHO seems to be the case) then the answer might not be to drastically change him to try to squeeze an ongoing out of HIM, but to just leave him in a supporting role, and look elsewhere for a headliner...
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Old 01-30-2019, 09:03 PM   #23
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The new Martian Manhunter book by Orlando and Rossmo is pretty decent.
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Old 01-31-2019, 07:01 AM   #24
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You're just making my point. EVEN SOME OF THE TITLES ON THAT LIST ARE SOFT!

So you want Kyle to star in a comic that runs for three years and then gets canceled because of low sales. BUT THEN WHAT? Will it be, hey, let's do that again?

DC has to stop fucking around like that and seek a permanent solution. I think they've already figured that out, even if you haven't.
I simply can't agree with this idea that a character can only be successful if he or she headlines a single title that goes on for years and years. That may have been the benchmark 30-40 years ago, but it's no longer applicable. Characters are rebooted, retooled, and grouped together on a regular basis. The successful ones have a place, whether it's their own books, an ensemble, or a crossover. Kyle has been regularly published for 25 years now, so I see no imperative to scramble for any kind of solution.

To celebrate Kyle's quarter-century of publication, I'd like to see something like a 6-8 issue mini-series that retells his origin, a book where he reunites with Alan and Jade for a short time, a story where he becomes Ion again, or a team-up with the Flash(es). If there's a hiatus between that an the time that he makes his way into the Morrison GL title, that's not a big deal.
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:35 PM   #25
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You can call a comic that fails after 40 issues of publication a "success" if you want to, and thus define "success" downward. But you're missing the point about what that does to the character. It damages him and makes it harder for him to sell comics in the future.

I posted a thread here a while back in which I suggested that DC launch a line of recurring minis, for characters who can't sell ongoings. I don't know why they don't do that. It seems like the obvious solution to the problem.

But still, I don't know why you'd want to see Kyle in a mini every three years instead of in Titans every month. I get it that you didn't like the supporting cast of third-stringers in Titans. Apparently DC didn't either, so they canceled it when it was selling well above the cancellation level.

I think they're going to fix that problem with a relaunch, and that Titans is going to get a good cast that includes Cyborg and some others. But if for some reason you object to Kyle being in Titans then, I don't want to hear about it.

Anyway, Kyle can appear in Titans and ALSO appear in an occasional mini. Those two venues for him would not be mutually exclusive. In fact they'd complement each other.

And Ed, you can urge DC to stop trying to make money off the Martian Manhunter, but they won't follow your advice. Saying "I like this character depicted in such a way that he can't sell comics" will never taken seriously. They don't care what you like about a character who doesn't sell. They care about selling comics.

That goes for Adam Strange too.

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