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Old 12-09-2014, 03:50 PM   #76
Tazer
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Yo.

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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Sorry Doom, Magneto put humans into ovens like the Nazi's did and turned Manhattan into his own personal playground.

Dude is villain to the teeeeee
wasnt he conscripted into being a sonderkommando (thats the term for wat he was at that point), as opposed to eagerly scorching ppl?

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4 realz? got a link for that? I totally admit, I'm not the biggest X-Men fan in the world; most of what I know about him is through encounters with Doom. I honestly didn't know about the ovens thing, though.
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2835161.html




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Geoff Johns should have a 10 mile restraining order from comic books, let alone films.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:07 PM   #77
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Sorry Doom, Magneto put humans into ovens like the Nazi's did and turned Manhattan into his own personal playground.

Dude is villain to the teeeeee
after seeing this

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can ya blame him?
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F**k all the "Haters" 3 years in and i still support our dear leader, one Donald J. Trump
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Old 12-09-2014, 05:34 PM   #78
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...While I would certainly not put him in the "heroes" category, I would contend that he is a three-dimensional character with many levels people need to understand before they simply slap the word "villain" on him.
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Sorry Doom, Magneto put humans into ovens like the Nazi's did and turned Manhattan into his own personal playground.

Dude is villain to the teeeeee
Yeah. Plus in my mind, a lot of the greatest villains do feel like they are doing the right thing and became villains as a result of being mistreated, persecuted, or misunderstood. That makes them more complex than the cartoon villains that twirl their mustaches and say "I will now do evil," but it doesn't make them any less a villain.

Anyway, greatest villain is too big a category. Even in the realm of comics alone, I don't know what to say. My favorite is the Riddler, but if I were to actually acknowledge greatest as in most popular, most recognizable, and iconic, I'd have to admit that Lex Luthor and the Joker outrank him.

To me, when I hear "greatest" I wouldn't think of my personal favorites, but of a character most universally recognized as a villain. Who is a villain that the guy on the street know? Who is a villain that is associated as evil by the Harvard grad, the homeless woman, and maybe even some poor farmer in China?

Of all villainous characters ever, I'd have to pick Dracula.

Not only is he a literary icon that has stayed in print for over a century and then been written by many, many others, but he's apparently the most prolific villain in cinema and is only outranked (arguably) by Sherlock Holmes for any character portrayed in movies!

And he really should be up there. His name is a synonym for vampire, evil bad guy, or life-sucking force. He can and has been portrayed as the sympathetic character, the suave killer, the merciless killing machine, etc. That is versatility of villainy!
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Old 12-09-2014, 05:42 PM   #79
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At the top of the list of TV assholes

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Old 12-09-2014, 05:42 PM   #80
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Wow, this thread was created even before my time on this board.

To participate, I'd go with Darkseid in DC and Mephisto in Marvel. Darkseid wants to tear down the universe and remake it in his image by using the Anti-Life equation.

Mephisto is pretty much the Devil, and what he did to Spiderman to keep Aunt May alive speaks for itself.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:31 PM   #81
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Yo.

sorry, but the biggest villain in fiction would have to be NONE OTHER THAN:



I mean, wat kind of utter bastard would take in kids (on multiple occasions, becuz sometimes they *die* so he needs to fill in those booties), only to put them in tight clothing and send them out to fight grown & armed men, some of which are legally classified as psychos??

answer: a cold, calculating, villianous lunatic who cares more for his goals than any1 elses, and cant NONE OF YA'LL deny it.





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Geoff Johns should have a 10 mile restraining order from comic books, let alone films.

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Old 12-09-2014, 09:20 PM   #82
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Yo.

sorry, but the biggest villain in fiction would have to be NONE OTHER THAN:



I mean, wat kind of utter bastard would take in kids (on multiple occasions, becuz sometimes they *die* so he needs to fill in those booties), only to put them in tight clothing and send them out to fight grown & armed men, some of which are legally classified as psychos??

answer: a cold, calculating, villianous lunatic who cares more for his goals than any1 elses, and cant NONE OF YA'LL deny it.





Tazer
I was waiting for someone to turn the tables like that. It will make for some very interesting conversation.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:54 PM   #83
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Well, even if I were to grant the premise, he has a pretty lousy record since he's only corrupted four boys, two of which died, but neither of which seem to have stayed dead.

Nope, it's Dracula (see argument below).

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:18 PM   #84
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Of all villainous characters ever, I'd have to pick Dracula.

And he really should be up there. His name is a synonym for vampire, evil bad guy, or life-sucking force. He can and has been portrayed as the sympathetic character, the suave killer, the merciless killing machine, etc. That is versatility of villainy!
Interesting choice and your reasoning is valid. He *is* known world-wide as a symbol of fear and evil.

HOWEVER.....

Is he not also a natural predator who requires blood to survive? For the moment, I'm putting aside the Universal/Hammer interpretations, and just going on what he is as an animal, much like us, but with different requirements for survival. Great White Sharks have been villainized for years, but to the shark, it is doing what it does naturally: feeding to survive. The human concept of "good" and "evil" has no place in the shark's feeble mind. When you add near-human concepts and abilities to that, you get Dracula, or the vampire in general. (I will totally grant you that I have watched a lot of True Blood, so the image of the "villain vampire" has somewhat been watered down in my thought process). I suppose I could use a venomous snake as an example, too, which is a little more akin to a vampire.

The vampire needs blood, whether he bleeds a pig for it or sacks a human. If it doesn't get blood, it's going to die. It *does* have the ability to reason and make choices, unlike the animal comparisons, so when you move to downtown London and fall in love with a human, I don't imagine there are a lot of livestock farms around Carfax Abby to feed your need.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:21 PM   #85
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after seeing this



can ya blame him?

It donned on me that I actually have that trade upstairs. And I have to go with Ion on this one.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:01 PM   #86
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Interesting choice and your reasoning is valid. He *is* known world-wide as a symbol of fear and evil.

HOWEVER.....

Is he not also a natural predator who requires blood to survive? For the moment, I'm putting aside the Universal/Hammer interpretations, and just going on what he is as an animal, much like us, but with different requirements for survival. . .
Actually, that argument has been made even within some Dracula movies (and in the 2009 Fright Night, Ed compares that vampire to Jaws) and occasionally Van Helsing admits to admiring Dracula's tenacity and strength. It depends on the portrayal. In some versions he clearly chooses to become a vampire. I would say Stoker wanted to portray him as essentially evil since he's defeated with holy objects.

BUT, if he was changed unwillingly AND he must kill to survive (it's possible that it would only hurt, not kill him), that certainly mitigates the responsibility and evil.

Still, it's different if the person has reason and accountability, is it not? I mean, a shark also doesn't even have the ability to think "maybe I shouldn't kill this person because it's wrong." If tomorrow you were turned into a creature who can only continue to exist by killing 100 babies a day, would it be right for you to choose to do so? I think it's at least debatable.
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:32 PM   #87
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I didn't even have my subscription to this thread still, and I started the damn thread. ...Geez, reading the damn thing makes me all kinda of nostalgic...


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HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION, BATMAN!

Indeed.


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my God Tarmode......how bored were U to dig this thread up?!??

Seconded.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:24 AM   #88
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If tomorrow you were turned into a creature who can only continue to exist by killing 100 babies a day, would it be right for you to choose to do so? I think it's at least debatable.
Now there's a horrible thought. For my part, anyway, there wouldn't be any debate. I would refuse to do so, and if I die, then I die. There are worse things than dying, and I think killing 100 babies a day to stay alive falls in that category. As somebody who believes in God, I figure, if God allowed such a thing to happen to me, that would be the response He'd be looking for.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:43 AM   #89
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Still, it's different if the person has reason and accountability, is it not? I mean, a shark also doesn't even have the ability to think "maybe I shouldn't kill this person because it's wrong." If tomorrow you were turned into a creature who can only continue to exist by killing 100 babies a day, would it be right for you to choose to do so? I think it's at least debatable.

I think the "killing 100 babies a day" comparison is a bit extreme for what I'm trying to say. That would be a psychological need for someone like Ed Gein or Jeffrey Dahmer. It would not provide sustenance and nourishment to a living breathing (or non-breathing in the vampire's case) being that had survival requirements.

Now, me personally? If I were afflicted or born with a biological imperative that I must feed off the living AND had the ability to reason as only humans do, then that would be a toss-up. Being who I am, I would try to seek medical help, assuming I have lived my entire existence in modern society, or I would feed off animals. But that only entails that I am your average "run of the mill" vampire, not Dracula.

What were Dracula's ultimate goals? To turn the world to vampires? Conquest? Wipe out the human species? (I'm actually asking here, I'm not sure how Stoker drew him as a character beyond preying upon a few girls in London) World Domination that he would rule?
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:00 AM   #90
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Yeah, the example was purposely extreme. Positing a moral quandary in an extreme form is an easier way to have someone consider your point. If the other side admits that x+10 is evil, perhaps they'll consider that x alone could be evil.

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...What were Dracula's ultimate goals? To turn the world to vampires? Conquest? Wipe out the human species? (I'm actually asking here, I'm not sure how Stoker drew him as a character beyond preying upon a few girls in London) World Domination that he would rule?
Stoker's Dracula just wanted a change of scene with fresh victims as far as can be gathered, but the whole story is told from everyone else's view (literally, it's put together from journal entries, doctor reports, news articles etc). We never get an explicit statement of purpose from Dracula because pretty much any time he is recorded, he is not being honest about his nature or intentions. In Stoker's original, thoug, there is no overt world domination problems. At most, he wants the freedom to feed in a metropolitan city and make one or more brides.

You should definitely read it. It's a classic. I've read it twice and plan to read the annotated version sometime soon (after I get it).
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Old 12-12-2014, 02:38 AM   #91
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Yo.

my God Tarmode......how bored were U to dig this thread up?!??




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Tazer, just had a nostalgic moment, but truthfully, was very bored that day, LOL!
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