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Old 01-31-2019, 03:15 PM   #26
Mister Ed
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And Ed, you can urge DC to stop trying to make money off the Martian Manhunter, but they won't follow your advice. Saying "I like this character depicted in such a way that he can't sell comics" will never taken seriously. They don't care what you like about a character who doesn't sell. They care about selling comics.

That goes for Adam Strange too.
If they only care about selling comics, why do they keep trying to make a Martian Manhunter solo title, when it doesn't seem to work? What if the way to sell more comics is to sell a title headlining somebody else, not keep trying with the same guy? My point is that there is no reason to keep trying to force that specific character into a headlining position if he works better as a supporting character. I just don't see the point in making drastic changes to an existing character to try to force them into a headlining position when there are other characters that might work better, or a NEW character might work better.

To be honest, I love your idea of a series of minis for second tier characters that are popular enough as supporting characters that people occasionally want to see them in the spotlight, even if they couldn't carry an ongoing title.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:51 PM   #27
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If they only care about selling comics, why do they keep trying to make a Martian Manhunter solo title, when it doesn't seem to work? What if the way to sell more comics is to sell a title headlining somebody else, not keep trying with the same guy? . . .
Yeah, I don't buy that either, at least not 100%. Pet projects like DiDio's OMAC and such prove that there's still a willingness to publish for fun or the interest of TPTB.

When they say "we wanted to bring back so and so" or "we're excited to let writer X bring his own story," I'm sure there are times it's just corporate speak for "the accountants say," but I don't believe these guys are so far from being comic fans that this is always the case and they're always lying about wanting to tell a certain story.

Comics, like movies, music, and regular books are a commercial art. Both aspects are there; commercial and art. There's always a tension between artistic expression and marketability. Sometimes, it may lean heavily more to the commercial, where you get a movie that feels like they were entirely made from a focus group and executive notes, but it's never just that.
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Old 01-31-2019, 05:11 PM   #28
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Why do they keep trying out the MM in solo comics without changing anything? Because they think all they need is to do it BETTER. Which is silly. But as William Blake said, the fool who persists in his folly becomes wise. They'll figure out eventually that they need to make some changes.

And guys, it's a publicly traded company. That means it exists to make a profit for its stockholders. The people who buy stock in DC don't give a shit about keeping the Martian Manhunter the way he is because they like him that way. They want a return on their investment, and they want it now.
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Old 01-31-2019, 06:36 PM   #29
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By your logic, they should be revamping every single character in their gigantic catalog to make them able to support an ongoing. You seem to be arguing that if Martian Manhunter can't support an ongoing solo title as he is, then he MUST be changed, but that misses the option (which is used with the VAST majority of characters they own) of NOT having him support an ongoing solo title.

If they want a new ongoing solo title that sells, why is it a BETTER option to drastically change Martian Manhunter for one than to try a different character, or to create a new character? I'm not arguing that it is impossible that a drastically altered MM might better support his own ongoing than the current version. I'm not convinced that it would, but I don't doubt the possibility.

Somehow this has been made about MM, but he's really just a convenient illustration. It isn't like I'm some kind of rabid MM fanboy. I like the character, and have usually enjoyed him as part of a Justice League line-up. I've never bought any of his solo titles, though, and don't forsee doing so (whether or not they drastically change him). If the character were killed off and I never saw him again I doubt I'd miss him much after a short while.

I just am not clear why there is a need to do whatever it takes to make his character support an ongoing. There are SCORES of DC characters that don't have ongoings. In most cases it seems like DC just recognizes this and doesn't try to force the matter. For whatever reason DC keeps trying it with MM (and a few other characters) despite the lack of success. You may well be right that MM would need drastic changes to support an ongoing, but the question then becomes, why does he need to? It that the best strategy for selling copies on a new ongoing title? Or would it be better to try another character or make a new one?

In general I'm against making drastic changes to a character simply to boost sales, not because I'm super attached to all these characters, but because I feel like it damages any hope of long-term brand loyalty. If a company develops a reputation for treating their characters that way, I'd think it would discourage new readers from even bothering to get invested in them, since they know that next time sales dip, that character will become something unrecognizable.
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Old 01-31-2019, 10:43 PM   #30
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By your logic, they should be revamping every single character in their gigantic catalog to make them able to support an ongoing. . . There are SCORES of DC characters that don't have ongoings. In most cases it seems like DC just recognizes this and doesn't try to force the matter. . .
Yep. Vibe. Bat Lash. B'wanna Beast. Detective Chimp. Even teams like Freedom Fighters. I think all of these are characters that DC has no illusions are going to be indefinite ongoings, but their bizarreness and rarity makes them fun enough to appear in backups or occasional minis with interest.
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Old 02-01-2019, 07:48 PM   #31
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Yep. Vibe. Bat Lash. B'wanna Beast. Detective Chimp. Even teams like Freedom Fighters. I think all of these are characters that DC has no illusions are going to be indefinite ongoings, but their bizarreness and rarity makes them fun enough to appear in backups or occasional minis with interest.
There are numerous characters who could be termed as both indispensable to their respective mythos, but also fall into the non-headliner category. Kilowog would be a good Green Lantern example. He's integral to GLC stories and he could probably sell a mini/maxi series, but I doubt that a title based solely around him could stay viable for 5 years.
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Old 02-02-2019, 01:15 AM   #32
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Dude's just butt-hurt Guy Gardner's not a headliner so he's gotta come into the Kyle sub-forum and sling some shit around and get everybody off topic as usual. Last I checked Kyle Rayner sold more comics in his time than BOTH John and Guy (who were introduced way before him BTW), and if any other GL character deserves to headline a book it's Kyle. When is the last time any DC character (that wasn't Superman or Batman)sold a series for well over one hundred issues before being cancelled or relaunched? Let alone do it in an established series without having a new #1 issue when they're introduced? I think the ONLY character that's done it was Wally West, and he was already an established character, sidekick, and supporting character in the title.

Titans may be cancelled but we haven't seen the last of Kyle. If DC is really all about the money, Kyle sells comics. Haters can deny that shit all they want. Even at his lowest points Kyle was still bringing in decent sales. Nobody's begging DC for Blue Lantern Kyle or another iteration of the Rainbow Brigade so IDK why anybody would even bring that stuff up, just like nobody's asking for Guy's brother to be reintroduced with Warrior powers, or Alan Scott to be put into the GLC.

Kyle has sold ongoing books [GL, Ion [before it was retooled as a maxi series], GLC, and New Guardians], he's starred in several mini series and one-shots [Rann/Thanagar War, GLC Recharged, Omega Men, Challengers From Beyond], and has been an integral part of two eras of Titans, Morrison's classic JLA run, and the GL universe as a whole.

I'm still betting Red Hood flying solo, Titans getting cancelled, and Kyle being freed up will bring us another iteration of the Challengers. If for no other reason than to have Kyle see Jason Todd's new look and make a Mortal Kombat joke.

EDIT: If I was gonna do anything with Martian Manhunter, I'd make him a back-up story in Detective Comics and let Tom King have a crack at him. Then when he can work it into his schedule try and get King on a follow up MM ongoing.

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Old 02-02-2019, 08:20 AM   #33
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Again, the Orlando/Rossmo Manhunter series is really good, no need to reinvent that wheel right now.
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Old 02-02-2019, 02:54 PM   #34
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Again, the Orlando/Rossmo Manhunter series is really good, no need to reinvent that wheel right now.
The first issue sold a measly 39,312. Do you want to make any predictions about how long it'll last?
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Old 02-02-2019, 03:52 PM   #35
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It's been announced as a 12-issue miniseries to begin with.
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Old 02-02-2019, 05:22 PM   #36
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Dude's just butt-hurt Guy Gardner's not a headliner so he's gotta come into the Kyle sub-forum and sling some shit around and get everybody off topic as usual.

Titans may be cancelled but we haven't seen the last of Kyle. If DC is really all about the money, Kyle sells comics. Haters can deny that shit all they want. Even at his lowest points Kyle was still bringing in decent sales. Nobody's begging DC for Blue Lantern Kyle or another iteration of the Rainbow Brigade so IDK why anybody would even bring that stuff up,
Excuse me? Kyle may have some "silent majority" fans, but I for one tried to get the GL Wiki (https://greenlantern.fandom.com/wiki/Green_Lantern_Wiki) to list Kyle as a Blue Lantern before The Ring Thief storyline. I wasn't a big fan of the War of the Green Lanterns with Guy wearing both Red and Violet rings, but I've been pushing a "Hybrid Lanterns" class now for years.

The writers were wrong to change Kyle as White Lantern back into Green Lantern only. But they also royally messed up Kyle and every aspect of the White Lantern. No one could determine the "rules" for the White Lantern, from the single White Battery on Earth that Sinestro tried to steal, to Deadman being the White Lantern, to Kyle's failure at bringing the Blue Lantern Corps back. I blame the writers/editors, not the fans. Relic was a terrible story, succeeded only by the entire Third Army aka "the Guardians go evil" storyline. For years now the only plot we have had as fans is the "Enemies Who Can Defeat Green Lanterns!" plot, and it stinks after the 8th iteration. Part of the problem was no Green Lanterns in the 30th Century's Legion of Super-Heroes, albeit tacked on at the last second, and Hal Jordan in the 50th Century? also had no GL Corps. So every new GL writer thought they had THE storyline about how the GL Corps would fall. (That was Parallax and Hal Jordan, btw.)

As for Guy, he's had a lead albatross around his neck for decades called "The Hal Jordan Old Fans", and only got his respect in JLI. But even that was messed up by the writers. I like the Guy-Ice paring. I liked Guy wearing Sinestro's ring. I like Guy as Warrior. I hate how the First White Lantern rewrote Guy's history into being a failed policeman, rather than a criminal attorney. I liked Guy as a Red Lantern, but hated the mullet. And Guy's been the World's Greatest Superheroes punching bag since the Imperix crossover. As he is now Guy is just an also-ran who happens to somehow be drinking buddies with Arkillo in the Sinestro Corps. Even the one-shot with Guy wearing the new Darkstars suit didn't make sense - I thought Guy's father died years ago, just leaving his mother behind.

So I'm going to pick and choose the individual GL issues that I like, but say the overall path of GL is built upon sales, not any kind of logic or continuity.
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Old 02-02-2019, 05:39 PM   #37
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I'm just completely over on the spectrum shit at this point. Guy's my second favorite GL but I don't think he can carry a book on his own like Kyle has proven he has. And if the emphasis on the franchise moving forward is GREEN Lanterns, then Kyle needs to be in another book somewhere representing.

John is dealing with that Invisible Spectrum shit in JL and now his weird GL ring tattoo. Hal is starring in a monthly book by an epic creative team. If Kyle and Guy aren't gonna be in a GLC title soon then if I was DC and wanted to make some cash I'd stick Kyle in another book [like they have in the past] ASAP.

If some sort of B-team hybrid of second/third generation characters and Titans/Leaguers is what they're wanting to go with then they should just come up with something new or reinvent the Challengers. You could quite literally tell the same stories of JL Odyssey and the last bit of Titans rearranging some characters and calling it something else.

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It's been announced as a 12-issue miniseries to begin with.
+1

LOL

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Old 02-02-2019, 05:54 PM   #38
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Excuse me? Kyle may have some "silent majority" fans, but I for one tried to get the GL Wiki (https://greenlantern.fandom.com/wiki/Green_Lantern_Wiki) to list Kyle as a Blue Lantern before The Ring Thief storyline. I wasn't a big fan of the War of the Green Lanterns with Guy wearing both Red and Violet rings, but I've been pushing a "Hybrid Lanterns" class now for years.

The writers were wrong to change Kyle as White Lantern back into Green Lantern only. But they also royally messed up Kyle and every aspect of the White Lantern. No one could determine the "rules" for the White Lantern, from the single White Battery on Earth that Sinestro tried to steal, to Deadman being the White Lantern, to Kyle's failure at bringing the Blue Lantern Corps back. I blame the writers/editors, not the fans. Relic was a terrible story, succeeded only by the entire Third Army aka "the Guardians go evil" storyline. For years now the only plot we have had as fans is the "Enemies Who Can Defeat Green Lanterns!" plot, and it stinks after the 8th iteration. Part of the problem was no Green Lanterns in the 30th Century's Legion of Super-Heroes, albeit tacked on at the last second, and Hal Jordan in the 50th Century? also had no GL Corps. So every new GL writer thought they had THE storyline about how the GL Corps would fall. (That was Parallax and Hal Jordan, btw.)

As for Guy, he's had a lead albatross around his neck for decades called "The Hal Jordan Old Fans", and only got his respect in JLI. But even that was messed up by the writers. I like the Guy-Ice paring. I liked Guy wearing Sinestro's ring. I like Guy as Warrior. I hate how the First White Lantern rewrote Guy's history into being a failed policeman, rather than a criminal attorney. I liked Guy as a Red Lantern, but hated the mullet. And Guy's been the World's Greatest Superheroes punching bag since the Imperix crossover. As he is now Guy is just an also-ran who happens to somehow be drinking buddies with Arkillo in the Sinestro Corps. Even the one-shot with Guy wearing the new Darkstars suit didn't make sense - I thought Guy's father died years ago, just leaving his mother behind.

So I'm going to pick and choose the individual GL issues that I like, but say the overall path of GL is built upon sales, not any kind of logic or continuity.
I've got that maroon Omega Boy blocked because he compulsively trolls me, but I see from where you quoted him that he's at it again. He's jealous because I've sold a film script and nobody will ever pay him one penny to write anything. The thing that people hate most in this world is to see someone who they've regarded as a peer get ahead of them. Many companies won't promote from within because workers refuse to accept former peers as their bosses. But Omega Boy was never my peer. That was just an idea he had.

Anyway, nothing to do with power rings is going to sell unless it says GREEN LANTERN on the cover. That's been proved beyond any dispute by now.

And maybe Kyle really is too big a deal to star in an upgraded version of Titans and an occasional mini. But I don't think so. When Hal came back, the "Green Lantern for the Nineties," as DC once breathlessly billed Kyle, lost his raison d'Ítre. Hence his becoming a god and all that nonsense.

Omega Boy and the two or three other remaining readers who pine for the Nineties should be glad they're getting to see Kyle on a regular basis. They're not going to get egg in their beer on top of that.

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Old 02-03-2019, 07:24 PM   #39
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Sold a script or won a contest? You've got two different stories of how you broke into some form of business floating around now LMAO, and their probably isn't ANY truth to either. And I'm a troll yet you're the one going into a Kyle forum [a character you don't care for] to sling some shit around.... okaaaaaay.

As far as being a peer, you've been an angry old man since the 90's on those DC Forums when you used to get your jollies off talking shit to children [I think I was like 12 or 13 when you attacked my views the first time]. You're essentially the old man screaming for kids to get off his lawn, despite your lawn [represented by DC Comics as a whole] being open to an entire community. When Kyle blew up and it pissed you off a new character broke onto the scene in such a way it made the decades of old stuff you pine for superfluous, you became the basis for online trolling. I'm sorry my fav. has sold more comics than yours and that Beau Smith will probably never write another comic for DC. That's not my fault though.

But do us all a favor and either prove you're big time, or STFU with the "I'm better than all of you" shit. I own two homes, three vehicles, been married going on 11 years, and have a kid in the 3rd grade who's reading and math scores are higher than most 6th and 7th graders. Comics, writing, and drawing [and any other artsy stuff I do like sculpting, painting, etc.] are hobbies of mine, because I have something called a life. My day isn't spent patting myself on the back cause nobody else reads and comments on my fanfics, or posting the same rhetoric on five different message boards because I'm that goddamn desperate for a response.

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Old 02-03-2019, 07:48 PM   #40
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:26 PM   #41
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I don't think I've ever actually been a troll enough to give somebody a nickname before like ol' Trey either. I can play the game too though...

Here's Trey Straining to come up with a decent pitch:



I mean, how are you gonna quote somebody, then 90% of your response is talking shit to somebody else you've given a nickname to? And you don't fucking think that's trolling? Somebody is off their dementia meds again...

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Old 02-03-2019, 11:25 PM   #42
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What's Michael doing there? Watching that documentary about himself?

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