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Old 04-01-2014, 02:18 PM   #26
Trey Strain
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Don;t make me find that interview with Gerard Jones.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:24 PM   #27
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Let me have him and put him in Lantern Academy.
I'd rather you put him in NYC.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:27 PM   #28
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Jones wrote a TERRIFIC script for Emerald Twilight that Kevin Dooley rejected on the grounds that it wasn't shocking enough.
I'm not sure about that. I read this piece about Gerard Jones' script: http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/curtain/gl-et.php

But I'm not entirely sure if it is the real deal. It looks more like a treatment that is nowhere near being finished.
Having read all of his vol. 3 run I can say for myself that I don't like his Hal at all. Emerald Dawn was okay (some parts were good, some absolutely terrible), the road back wasn't very good either. Instead of an interesting walkabout we got hobo Hal who cannot hold a job.
A Guy and his Gnort was entertaining in a trashy way but Mosaic (#14-17) wasn't very good either. The Mosaic series was definitely better.
#18 was crap, #19 was good, #20-24 started good but got stale very quick and ended weak. #25 was shit, #26-28 were better than expected, #29 was funny, the Flash crossover #30-31 was good (mostly because of Mark Waid I guess), #32-33 was bad, #34-35 were good, #36 was very good IMO, #37 was the worst piece of shit I read in a long time and I think most of the issues afterwards were crossovers or stories I don't remember anymore.
And don't forget the infamous #47 where Hal teams up with Oliver Queen, having seemlingy forgotten what happend to Coast City and not fitting into the grand scheme of the renewed Lantern title at all.

In my opinion it was his writing that caused the sales low and not the stale character of Hal itself. Don't forget that his vol 3 run was essentially a reboot, getting Hal and the guardians back and restarting the corps. Jones could have done anything with the character he wanted, but he didn't. He just wrote a whiny Hal that got on my nerves.
If you just write a synopsis of his stories most of them are probably fine, but the end product isn't. So no, I don't think his Emerald Twilight would have been significantly better than the one we got from Marz.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:28 PM   #29
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Don;t make me find that interview with Gerard Jones.
The timeline is clear. There is no possible way that Mosaic was cancelled because of plans for Kyle, because Marz's ET didn't exist at all when Mosiac was cancelled.

Here is a quote from Gerard Jones on the matter, though, if you don't believe me:

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Mosaic was cancelled because it was so odd for the DC universe aesthetic. Paul Levitz and Mike Carlin felt it would inevitably lose sales, although I didn't feel the evidence was there for that. I think they also feared that it would make the whole GL universe more confusing for readers. The other comics were just victims of slow sales declines. The whole business was declining, DC was hitting hard times, the main GL series lost a lot of sales, no doubt at least partly because of my boring stories.
Here's a link to that interview:

http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing39/iview.shtml

Here's the quote from Cully Hamner:

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(A)s I was told at the time, it didn’t fit with DC editorial vision (whatever that means). Sales didn’t matter, fan support didn’t matter; the first issue sold about 210,000 copies and my last issue sold about 70,000, so there was plenty of support for the book. It was marked for cancellation when issue #5 came out, and they allowed Gerry Jones a year to wrap it up, but there was no doubt that it was being cancelled because somebody upstairs just didn’t care for it. So, I had a feeling after a while of creatively being against a brick wall, and got out before the end. You pay your money, you takes your chances. That’s the biz.
I'd link that article, but the link I found doesn't actually work.

So there is no doubt in my mind that Kyle's "one and only" status was responsible for the end of GLCQ, and Guy losing his yellow ring, and Alan Scott becoming Sentinel, etc. but Mosaic's cancellation is one thing for which it cannot be blamed.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that Mosiac WOULD have been cancelled for that reason had it stuck around that long, but it had already been canned before Marz's ET even existed.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:31 PM   #30
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The last issue of Mosaic was in October 1993. The last issue of Green Lantern before Hal went crazy was #47, in November 1993. GL didn't publish in December 1993 because Marz was rewriting Emerald Twilight, and GL #48, the first issue of Emerald Twilight, was published in January 1994.

It was all coordinated. Mosaic was junked so that Kyle could be the special snowflake.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:36 PM   #31
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The last issue of Mosaic was in October 1993. The last issue of Green Lantern before Hal went crazy was #47, in November 1993. GL didn't publish in December 1993 because Marz was rewriting Emerald Twilight, and GL #48, the first issue of Emerald Twilight, was published in January 1994.

It was all coordinated. Mosaic was junked so that Kyle could be the special snowflake.
Fine. Ignore the evidence of both Gerard Jones and Cully Hamner. (Even your own evidence. The timing you cite, far from showing causality, disproves it. Mosaic was gone BEFORE they even had Marz do the rewrite. If the last Mosaic came out in October 1993, it was WRITTEN months before that. Kyle didn't even exist.)

For my mind, there is already plenty of stuff that can be laid at the feet of the "one and only ringbearer" policy already, without having to invent more.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue the point, since, aside from a sense of strict accuracy, it makes no difference. As I said, I have no doubt that, had Mosaic survived long enough for Kyle to come on the scene, it WOULD have been cancelled at that point, for the same reason all those other changes were made. It just happens that it was gone before all that went down. Probably fortunate, too, because had it been, it would likely have been scrapped suddenly, rather than being given a year to wrap up its major plotlines.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:37 PM   #32
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I'm not sure about that. I read this piece about Gerard Jones' script: http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/curtain/gl-et.php

But I'm not entirely sure if it is the real deal. It looks more like a treatment that is nowhere near being finished.
Having read all of his vol. 3 run I can say for myself that I don't like his Hal at all. Emerald Dawn was okay (some parts were good, some absolutely terrible), the road back wasn't very good either. Instead of an interesting walkabout we got hobo Hal who cannot hold a job.
A Guy and his Gnort was entertaining in a trashy way but Mosaic (#14-17) wasn't very good either. The Mosaic series was definitely better.
#18 was crap, #19 was good, #20-24 started good but got stale very quick and ended weak. #25 was shit, #26-28 were better than expected, #29 was funny, the Flash crossover #30-31 was good (mostly because of Mark Waid I guess), #32-33 was bad, #34-35 were good, #36 was very good IMO, #37 was the worst piece of shit I read in a long time and I think most of the issues afterwards were crossovers or stories I don't remember anymore.
And don't forget the infamous #47 where Hal teams up with Oliver Queen, having seemlingy forgotten what happend to Coast City and not fitting into the grand scheme of the renewed Lantern title at all.

In my opinion it was his writing that caused the sales low and not the stale character of Hal itself. Don't forget that his vol 3 run was essentially a reboot, getting Hal and the guardians back and restarting the corps. Jones could have done anything with the character he wanted, but he didn't. He just wrote a whiny Hal that got on my nerves.
If you just write a synopsis of his stories most of them are probably fine, but the end product isn't. So no, I don't think his Emerald Twilight would have been significantly better than the one we got from Marz.
The whole script actually was posted online at one time, but an infamous Kyle Troll named Omar demanded that it be taken down because it was a copyright violation, so DC ordered it removed. What you see there is a treatment that Jones himself wrote.

The problem Jones had is that he and Dooley didn't get along. The stories that Jones wrote for Andy Helfer were great, but as soon as Dooley took over, the quality crashed.

I very much disagree about The Road Back, A Guy And His G'Nort, the two Emerald Dawns, Mosaic and Guy Gardner Reborn All were great.

One thing Geoff did that was good was to get Hal away from being the hapless self-doubter that Denny O'Neil created. Geoff made Hal too much of a bonehead, but still, it was an improvement.

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Old 04-01-2014, 02:49 PM   #33
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Fine. Ignore the evidence of both Gerard Jones and Cully Hamner. (Even your own evidence. The timing you cite, far from showing causality, disproves it. Mosaic was gone BEFORE they even had Marz do the rewrite. If the last Mosaic came out in October 1993, it was WRITTEN months before that. Kyle didn't even exist.)

For my mind, there is already plenty of stuff that can be laid at the feet of the "one and only ringbearer" policy already, without having to invent more.
Mosaic was ended ONE MONTH before Emerald Dawn was supposed to be published! What do you want? Do you want Hal's run and Mosaic to have ended on the same month? Would that mean that the rise of Kyle had nothing to do with every other Green Lantern being depowered, including John? Of course it was all related! How was Mosaic going to continue past that point if John was no longer a GL? Jeez!!!!!!
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:53 PM   #34
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Mosaic would have been cancelled anyway but are you seriously arguing with both Jones and Cully stating that Mosaic was doomed from the beginning?
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:54 PM   #35
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Mosaic was ended ONE MONTH before Emerald Dawn was supposed to be published! What do you want? Do you want Hal's run and Mosaic to have ended on the same month? Would that mean that the rise of Kyle had nothing to do with every other Green Lantern being depowered, including John? Of course it was all related! How was Mosaic going to continue past that point if John was no longer a GL? Jeez!!!!!!
Two months, actually, and that was two months before Gerard Jones' ET was supposed to be published, which didn't depower John. Marz's ET didn't even exist yet.

And according to Mosaic's creators, the cancellation had nothing to do with it, and was decided a YEAR earlier, after Mosiac #5.

What more do YOU want? If it is that important to you to falsely ascribe Mosaic's cancellation to Kyle being a "special snowflake" knock yourself out. I'm done arguing it.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:05 PM   #36
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One thing Geoff did that was good was to get Hal away from being the hapless self-doubter that Denny O'Neil created.
By blaming it all on a giant space bug. Which means we'd been reading the adventures of Parallax, not Hal, since the 1970s.
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Geoff made Hal too much of a bonehead, but still, it was an improvement.
No, it wasn't. He made him incredibly boring by taking just about everything unique about the character.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:19 PM   #37
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By blaming it all on a giant space bug. Which means we'd been reading the adventures of Parallax, not Hal, since the 1970s.
He was posessed by Parallax during ET, not before!
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:26 PM   #38
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Parallax was influencing him as far back as his 1970s adventures. This was clearly stated in Rebirth, and "Hard Traveling Heroes" was specifically mentioned in that Hal blamed his "road trips" on Parallax clouding his thoughts.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:18 PM   #39
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Parallax was influencing him as far back as his 1970s adventures. This was clearly stated in Rebirth, and "Hard Traveling Heroes" was specifically mentioned in that Hal blamed his "road trips" on Parallax clouding his thoughts.
Yeah, that part was weird, but he wasn't fully possessing him until ET. He influenced him before that like a a devil on the shoulder (according to the retcon), but he hadn't yet subsumed his whole identity.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:44 PM   #40
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Right. It was still made clear that Hal's "bad" decisions (as determined by Johns) were not his own up until ET; at that point, it was 100% Parallax, which simply made no sense.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:12 AM   #41
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I don't care about blaming it. I'm just glad he changed it. A test pilot and a GL should never have been depicted that way. But as I said, he made Hal too much of a bonehead.
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:16 AM   #42
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Mosaic would have been cancelled anyway but are you seriously arguing with both Jones and Cully stating that Mosaic was doomed from the beginning?
Jones did not say that. In fact he was arguing that it be made of open-ended length, but Mike Carlin and Paul Levitz, while admitting that the sales were good, argued that it would "inevitably" lose circulation. Well, screw that. Keep it out there until that happens. But of course they had already decided that "there can be only one."
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:23 AM   #43
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I do not believe Mosaic was ever supposed to be 25 issues. My understanding is that when Gerard Jones heard that it was to be cancelled, he pushed for 25 issues to finish things up, and that he had initially planned on John's ascension to Guardian-hood to take that long anyway, but he was only granted 18.

I've seen no evidence to support that Kyle Rayner had anything to do with Mosaic's cancelling, though it is something I've heard people say before, probably just because it sounds good and both "Emerald Twilight" and Mosaic's cancelling happened around the same time... sorta'. All evidence I've seen suggests Mosaic was cancelled because the higher ups didn't like it and thought it was too weird.
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:27 AM   #44
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Jones did not say that. In fact he was arguing that it be made of open-ended length, but Mike Carlin and Paul Levitz, while admitting that the sales were good, argued that it would "inevitably" lose circulation. Well, screw that. Keep it out there until that happens. But of course they had already decided that "there can be only one."
http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing39/iview.shtml
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Old 04-02-2014, 01:59 PM   #45
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Denny O'Neil later tried to wash his hands of Emerald Twilight, but he was one of the people who said that Jones's version was insufficiently shocking. And he was also the guy who created the hand-wringing Hal.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:34 PM   #46
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I give up.
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:50 PM   #47
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This is almost as bad as IonFan's denial of reality.
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Old 04-02-2014, 05:24 PM   #48
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Had Darryl Banks drawn a panel yet with some kid taking a whiz in an alley and being handed a power ring for no reason? Nope, that was to come. But the whole GL mythos was junked AND KEPT GONE FOR TEN YEARS for a supposedly younger and hipper GL. And yep, that was Kyle, and yep, he's been a special snowflake ever since that day.

Kyle is guilty as charged on all counts. Case closed.

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Old 04-02-2014, 06:02 PM   #49
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You clearly missed Geoff Johns' run, where they continuously knocked Kyle down and took away everything "special" about him.

And the GL mythos most certainly was not junked, nor "kept gone". Its history was left alone and constantly referenced...until Johns came along and completely altered it.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:11 PM   #50
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When you see what I'm writing for Kyle, you'll support me to write his comic.

And Mosaic too.
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