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Old 11-24-2017, 12:56 AM   #1
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Question What DC Films NEED

Everybody has their own opinions on what the DC films need, but I'd like to know what everyone thinks is the most important things to fix about the extended DC film universe. Are there actors attached to roles you don't care for? A particular hero or two you'd like to see sooner than later? Maybe instead of all of these Batman movie spin offs DC/WB should think about the rest of the universe first?

IMHO I think *most* of the characters are too basic, and that leads into the plots looking a little bit off. And for the most part they're basic in ways that makes them differ quite a bit from the comics. Sure, a more barbarian/street type of Aquaman MIGHT work for film... but I felt Mamoa was basically just playing himself with a trident. And the pacing and general plot of most of the films [remember, we're five in now...] is barely there. Superhero films have got to break the mold at some point and quit being the origins for the characters and their enemies. A good story, or anything besides the mediocre stuff we've been getting, would certainly go a long way...

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Old 11-24-2017, 02:14 AM   #2
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For me, more Donner and less Snyder. That is, I feel like they should emphasize the comic book qualities. Less grim and gritty. Less stylized coolness (slow-mo, pounding music) and more fun absurdity.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:21 AM   #3
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For me, more Donner and less Snyder. That is, I feel like they should emphasize the comic book qualities. Less grim and gritty. Less stylized coolness (slow-mo, pounding music) and more fun absurdity.
God no.

They tried that with Superman Returns and that movie is a huge sleeping pill. I can't go back and watch the original Superman movies either, they haven't aged well to me. Now if you mean fun in the way of Batman '89, that I can do.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:50 AM   #4
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God no.

They tried that with Superman Returns and that movie is a huge sleeping pill. I can't go back and watch the original Superman movies either, they haven't aged well to me. Now if you mean fun in the way of Batman '89, that I can do.
The humor in #2 hasn't aged well, but I still rank the Donner movies as my top favorite comic movies. No other cape movie moves me like see Reeve reveal the symbol and Williams score swell. And the Kryptonian battle in #2 is still my favorite hero vs villain battle.

But I love Burton's Batman too. It's in my top five or so and my second favorite Batman movie.

That's just my taste, though. I don't have much of a modern sensibility.
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Old 11-24-2017, 04:46 PM   #5
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Less colorful Snyder explosion energy effects. That took me out of the end of WW for what was a pretty enjoyable ride to that point. Get rid of anything that looks like Snyder inspired it actually.

Dump everything they have with their Flash and start over. Get rid of the actor, get a new costume, and rewrite his personality. The Flash shouldn't be the young kid providing the humor. Make him like the comic book version; the JL move doesn't even resemble Barry Allen. Barry Allen is like the Steve Rogers of the DCU. He can be funny but he's not intentionally funny or a clown. He's probably one of the more serious characters. Let the humor come from Cyborg and some from Hal.

I agree about Mamoa. He looks cool and is likeable, but he is only playing Mamoa. Nothing at all like Aquaman.

If you have to recast Batman, bite the bullet and do it NOW. Find an actor who will stick around if Affleck wants out. Get a new Alfred that is closer to the comic.

Bring Martian Manhunter. I feel like Martian Manhunter would be a perfect place to add the racial diversity that DC needs by having a black or Asian actor play him, part of his story is he has secret identities all over the world so he can sample human life. John Jones the white detective was just one of them and was one of the best retcons Ostrander could have added to the mythos.

Hal Jordan needs to be in the next movie. He should have been in this one. Let him provide some of the humor, and he can bounce off a more serious Barry Allen like a buddy cop duo.

Make a story that needs to be told, a vililan with a motivation that makes sense.

Good editing. These things needs to stop looking like half of it ended up on the cutting room floor and was fixed by someone trying to take it from the shithouse to the penthouse. Stop making multimillion dollar movies using people that can't make good movies. The villain shouldn't be just added to the end with pretty explosions and expect people to give a shit.

Recast Lex Luthor NOW. That little pussy turd of a kid is no Lex Luthor. Hire a smarmy actor who is age appropriate can pull off the role like a Billy Zane.
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Old 11-25-2017, 02:42 AM   #6
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I've wanted Billy Zane as Lex since the Superman TAS days.

I think what will likely happen is we'll see Aquaman, and probably Batman... those will still happen because A-Man is already done filming or close to it, and Batman has got that badass director attached. Might even get a WW sequel. Flash/Flashpoint will probably move and come sooner than later so they can fix the universe.

After that they could tie this new DCEU to the old one with a couple familiar faces [Caville and Gadot] and recast others and/or jump to a different point in their histories.... like get a younger Batman to replace Afleck, and hire Charlie Hunnam to play either Aquaman or the Flash [because at least he's blonde] and put a little more experience and confidence into one of the characters.

After putting the original universe to bed, I'd start the new one with Justice League Unlimited and have a few more characters introduced throughout the film and let them face a threat like Brainiac. HQ would get her own flick, but instead of all of the other Batman spin offs... I'd rather see something done with the Outsiders and Batman.

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Old 11-25-2017, 09:45 PM   #7
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Billy Zane is too much of a "pipe dream" at this point to play Lex Luthor, lol.

Honestly at this point I think WB / DC should focus more on solo-films, going straight from MOS to BVS is looking more and more like it was a major mistake. They should have build up the DCEU much more gradually. Also try to vary the films more. Wonder Woman worked because the character actually felt like a real hero. The rest of these DC films fail because they don't seem to have any idea what they want to be.

Also if Aquaman is a failure (don't fail me wan), then they might as well start from scratch again. I guess it's better then nothing though.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:58 PM   #8
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I think DC should:

1 Make an exclusive deal with Netflix now that Marvel is on the way out for their own Disney service. This is your moment DC this opportunity is been delivered to you in a silver plate.


2 Fire Geoff Johns or never let him near a media that is not comics. I get he is the DC Bendis...wait.


3 Reboot the DCEU in another form. The DC Extended Universe was dead on arrival its clear now more than ever. DC movies are not “dark” they are just depresive in a bad way and I love depresive films. The box office is Marvel territory the sooner DC and everyone else accept it the better so DC can try something different. The public perception of DC movies and superhero fatige are at the worst place right now. Some of my friends where still thinking the Green Lantern movie was part of DCEU. Let that sink in.


3 Do an epic HBO or Netflix series of the production size of Stranger Things or GoT.

4 Create a Pixar/Dreamworks style DC universe if they really want the kids to like DC or an anime a la DBZ (like, who isnt fan of DBZ?)


Or just sell their DC characters to someone who knows how to use them. Preferably not Disney or the will literally rule the world. Im thinking Netflix or HBO or even Sony... I mean they did made the first and best superhero movies with Sam Raimi after all (and I hate spiderman) those are arguably the ones who started the whole modern superhero genre.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:43 PM   #9
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DC Movies need 4 things, 1st a central "Story Group" to sit down and map out each series of films leading to their large group movies. Yes I'm talking about the way Marvel does it, it apparently works.

2nd they need to stop letting their writers and directors run away from the material. Over the last 15 years their movies, Batman Begins and that trilogy, Man Of Steel, Batman V Superman and Justice League have all tried it's damnedest to ignore the things about the material and characters that causes people to love the comics. The over all world of the DC Universe, as shown very clearly in the Arrowverse on Television is weird quirky and generally full of absurdities. The movies ignore that trying to be Real Dark and Gritty grounded in a so called Reality.

3rd Stop the "Dark And Gritty" it ruins other wise good movie concepts. Man Of Steel if it wasn't trying to show a EMO Superman could have been great. But the over all tone of the movie was just terrible. Where was the color where was the bright vibrant city of Metropolis? Superman and his setting are supposed to invoke hope and a prospect of the future, not moody emo men in tights fighting in a 9/11 analog location. Speaking of which, I'm so seriously over 9/11 analogs in movies. Every damned movie has skyscrapers being destroyed trying to invoke that imagery and emotion. And it's pissing me off.

4th COLOR, Wonder Woman was the most colorful movie released to date. And it's clear from the disgusting look of Justice League Snyder filmed it with lighting designed to mute the colors. While Whedon brought many of the colors back up in grading during post and its obvious massively obvious as often the backgrounds clash with the characters and foregrounds and it often made the separation between set and CG quite obvious. If filmed in a way so that having the suits pop, color wise, was done from the start those kinds of issue will not happen and will make the movies so much better.

Lets face it, WB hasn't made a exceptional super hero movie since Christopher Reeves Superman 1 and 2. They have come close Micheal Keaton's Batman movies were close but they have gone so far down hill since then that it's likely they will drop the whole thing before long. At least until they need to reaffirm their rights.

That's my two cents on the topic have at my points .. people keep telling me I'm wrong, and yet everything I've pointed out WB is doing wrong is exactly what Marvel has been doing right. So I don't see how I'm wrong, but I'll listen and argue ..




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Old 11-27-2017, 01:28 AM   #10
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This is what DC needs.

WB needs to let the directors director and the writers write. Plan and simple. Every movie, minus Wonder Woman, has had rumors of WB interference and you see where that has gotten them.

For everyone blaming Johns for this, I get it, you don't like Johns. But how is he responsible for the rewrites, bring in Whedon for the reshoots, WB cutting out 40 minutes of JL, forcing humor into the movies, releasing the theatrical cut of BVS instead of the 3hr version of the movie that was vastly superior... the problem with DC Movies is WB. Plain and simple.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:26 PM   #11
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I can't sit through any of those 4 Batman movies. God awful. Even the first two that Burton did, I can't sit through.

IMO (and yes this just one opinion), the best DC movies WB has made are:

The Dark Knight
Superman
V For Vendetta
Wonder Woman
Batman Begins
Superman II
Watchmen

To me, those 7 are the only DC moves WB has made that are any good.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:56 PM   #12
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I struggled watching the Nolan films the last time I did see them so we're in opposite boats there. The tone of those just doesn't work for me anymore (it never did with #3). The more I look at it now, the more Nolan feels like a gimmicky director. Dunkirk was a decent story ruined for me by the Tarantino-style dischronology.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:48 AM   #13
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I don't see Nolan as a gimmicky direct. He just likes using big budgets and more practicals to their fullest. Honestly it works great for me, and the use of the "unconventional three story narrative" in Dunkirk I'll admit I quite liked too. Sometimes his style is maybe a bit too much, but hey he's successful with it, so I can't fault for him wanting to do, what he wants to do.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:59 AM   #14
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I don't see Nolan as a gimmicky direct. He just likes using big budgets and more practicals to their fullest. Honestly it works great for me, and the use of the "unconventional three story narrative" in Dunkirk I'll admit I quite liked too. Sometimes his style is maybe a bit too much, but hey he's successful with it, so I can't fault for him wanting to do, what he wants to do.
That was probably too harsh since this is more my gut reaction. I should say that he's a technically proficient director (in other words he's no hack) and I do get why he is popular with critics and fans. I think by gimmicky I was just thinking that he seems to often have a slant to his movies that seems to be crucial to the whole thing---Memento's backward timeline; Dunkirk's overlapping timeline; Inception's cliff hanger. It feels to me like he's uncomfortable with just relying on a strong three-act movie. I feel like he could do that (arguably he has in Batman, but comic movies come with their own baggage). Maybe that's my problem; I see more potential there.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:36 AM   #15
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That was probably too harsh since this is more my gut reaction. I should say that he's a technically proficient director (in other words he's no hack) and I do get why he is popular with critics and fans. I think by gimmicky I was just thinking that he seems to often have a slant to his movies that seems to be crucial to the whole thing---Memento's backward timeline; Dunkirk's overlapping timeline; Inception's cliff hanger. It feels to me like he's uncomfortable with just relying on a strong three-act movie. I feel like he could do that (arguably he has in Batman, but comic movies come with their own baggage). Maybe that's my problem; I see more potential there.
Well Interstellar had a pretty simple three act structure, even if it was a high "science-fiction film". I don't think Nolan has anything against doing a normal stories, I just assume he probably likes experimenting with different filmmaking techniques, which I can't really fault him for. I would like to see him do a smaller film again, though I understand he's enjoying the big-budget ability as long as he can.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:09 PM   #16
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One of the things I enjoy about the Nolan Batman trilogy is how real everything looked. It was as close as possible to what batman would really be like. On top of that, the world looks like the real world.

Compared to the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies, nearly every scene is obviously in a studio, or at best, the backlot. Everything feels so fake and flimsy to me, like at any moment a wall is going to fall over and we'll see the city is make out of cardboard and paper machete.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:03 PM   #17
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One of the things I enjoy about the Nolan Batman trilogy is how real everything looked. It was as close as possible to what batman would really be like. On top of that, the world looks like the real world...
I get that, but that's the exact thing that bothers me about them. I think they eschew what makes a comic book a comic book. They set it in such a real world (and I think I might have posted this before) that the first time Rachel sees Bruce as Batman, squatting on that railing and doing that stupid voice that she should laugh in his face or run from an obvious maniac. It doesn't work in the real world for me. It's like trying to do Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer in a methadone clinic. I always say that I'm glad Nolan never did my favorite baddie, Riddler. I'm sure he would've made him a smack-addicted killer that asks no riddles.

When I watch the Nolan Bat movies I don't think "wow, how real Gotham looks!" I just think "that's clearly Chicago."

And I love studio sets. I love the old westerns where the cowboys are clearly on a stage with planted trees and black backdrops. Artifice is art.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:33 PM   #18
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I definitely agree that the Snyder-verse didn't work, but it was ambitious and took risks. I also agree that Dick Donner set a wonderful template for the brighter characters of the DCEU.

I wanted Billy Zane as Lex because of his performance in "Titanic."

Personally, I think you can blame the "Green Lantern" movie for the DCEU being light on humor and more dark and gritty as it made the WB gun shy.

And I don't think dark and gritty is the DCEU's problem as "Logan" has been proven to be both a critical and box office success.

The DCEU should take a look at their DCTV Universe and note that they are character driven and embrace the source material. I mean, the first two parts of the "Crisis On Earth X" were amazingly fun.

So, the DC Films need to be character driven and celebrate them. "Man of Steel" and "Batman v. Superman" mourn their characters.

Additionally, comic book films in general have raise their standards over the years, so it's just not enough to put actors in costumes and have them punch their way to victory.
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:08 PM   #19
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...I wanted Billy Zane as Lex because of his performance in "Titanic." . .
Aww. Not for his part in Tales from the Crypt: Demon Night?!

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:12 PM   #20
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Aww. Not for his part in Tales from the Crypt: Demon Night?!

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
That was awesome!

I don't recall seeing that film.
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Old 11-29-2017, 06:13 PM   #21
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Personally, I think you can blame the "Green Lantern" movie for the DCEU being light on humor and more dark and gritty as it made the WB gun shy.
I believe that was certainly a contributor, but not the only factor. I think it was also the reception WB got from Superman Returns as well as the success of the darker Christopher Nolan Batman films.

As for what WB should do going forward ... eh. If I was in their shoes, I'd just see how Aquaman does and then make a decision based on that. If it doesn't perform well, I would call it quits on the films for a while (barring Wonder Woman) and try to resurrect the more or less defunct action cartoon genre with these comic book characters, beginning with a Superman cartoon, which I would call Superman in ACTION! (you heard it here first if someone rips that off ) It would have to be really, really, REALLY good to galvanize that genre and market again. No silly, exaggerated art style or overly goofy presentation. Just an intelligent, well done cartoon show that both children and adults could enjoy.

I would at least try to get something like that going because pretty much nothing is being done with action cartoons, and if WB could get some to work, they would be the king over there instead of trying to play catch up to Marvel and getting thoroughly trounced each time. And WB has all these properties that are perfect for entertainment like that.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:50 AM   #22
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I saw that in the theater!
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:34 PM   #23
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What DC films need...
~//V\\~
1. LESS CGI. Everything doesn't need to be an obvious CGI fest. For Fetchitwulf, they could have easily cast a big guy with a deep, powerful voice instead of going CGI crazy. Sometimes less is more.

2. Better situational villains. Justice League's villain sucked, Suicide Squad's main villain sucked and so did Ares in the WW movie... and so on and so forth.

3. STICK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL. Nuff said.

4. Better editing/pacing. The JL movie seemed so rushed with their editing that it looked like a project that an elementary school kid created. With a giant budget the least they could have done was polish the edges before releasing. I have a hard time believing that the final version received a golden seal of approval as opposed to, "just submit it!"
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Old 11-29-2017, 06:48 PM   #24
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Sadly it seems like they are forced to put that kind of thing on Cartoon Network, which doesn't seem to want it, preferring the weird and goofy. Both GL and Young Justice were good programs that got shafted by lack of support on Cartoon Network.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:58 PM   #25
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After watching Marvel's "Infinity War" trailer and hearing the line "get this man a shield" and then seeing Steve Rogers step out of the shadow made me realize what the biggest misstep in the DCEU was, and it's summed up in the word, "earn." Which is something that comic book writer, Mark Waid, said about his emotional distraught of Superman snapping Zod's neck in "Man of Steel."

The MCU earned that line and "Infinity War" as it took it's time to develop their character and build their world and more importantly, give their characters pivotal and defining moments.

With Steve Rogers, via "Captain America: The First Avenger" we see him be defined with moments like this:



And when Steve Rogers was asked, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" he replied:



Thus, defining Captain America's moral code and values.

The DCEU was built on "Man of Steel" and "Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice." In "Man of Steel" and "BvS," Superman was always mired in the world's negative reaction to a super powered alien, which was highlighted in characters like Pa Kent and Batman. As such, the films portrayed being Superman as burden than a gift. There's a "vision" sequence in "BvS" where Clark is on a peak of a mountain and has a vision of Pa Kent and Pa Kent tells Clark about a time when there was a flood that threaten his farm as a kid and he and his dad got some shovels and where about to channel the flood water away and thus saving his farm and his grandmother baked a cake to celebrate. However, it was later learned, that Pa Kent's action resulted in flooding the Lang farm and washed it away. Through two movies, Superman never earned the right to be joyful. Superman was never defined by his own moral values or code of ethics, but rather other defining for him.


I agree with Mark Waid when he said that the movie "Man of Steel" didn't earn the moment when Superman snaps Zod's neck in his quote:

Quote:
As Superman’s having his final one-on-one battle with Zod, show me that he’s going out of his way to save people from getting caught in the middle. SHOW ME that trying to simultaneously protect humans and beat Zod is achingly, achingly costing Superman the fight. Build to that moment of the hard choice…show me, without doubt, that Superman has no other out and do a better job of convincing me that it’s a hard decision to make, and maybe I’ll give it to you. But even if I do? It’s not a victory. Not this sad, soul-darkening, utterly sans-catharsis “triumph” that doesn’t even feel like a win so much as a stop-loss. Two and a half hours, and I never once got the sense that Superman really achieved or earned anything.
I don't think the Snyder-verse built a world that was better off with the arrival of Superman.

I don't think the Snyder-verse earned the "Martha" resolution.

I don't think the Snyder-verse earned the privilege of telling the "Death of Superman" story.

I don't think the Snyder-verse earned the newspaper headline



"A World Without Hope" because it never really offered any.

I don't think the Snyder-verse earned any emotional investment from the general movie going audience in its characters or stories.

The Snyder-verse is filled with visuals and some cool action pieces, but it lacks earning the general public's interest in these characters.
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