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Old 07-05-2011, 01:10 PM   #26
Rotten2thecorps
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Wonder Woman"s popularity is only Skin deep. Yes you can go out on the Street and Ask some one who Wonder Woman is they will know the Image,but few of them Know a damn thing about her. Ask that same person How she bacame Wonedr Woman. Or even what her Real name is and you will get a blank stare. Most of her fans and pretty much fan base stem from an old TV show.

DC comics is in the Business of selling comics. and Frankly that is one super power Wonder Woman just dose not have.. The trinity is old thinking. and if DC is ever gonna play in the same ball field with Marvel they need to stop benching thier star players.

The WB on the other hand is a diffrent story. No one wants to read Wonder Woman but if you do it right I think people will watch her. Wonder Woman needs to stop being the Token Girl and be played for her strengths.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #27
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Wonder Woman"s popularity is only Skin deep. Yes you can go out on the Street and Ask some one who Wonder Woman is they will know the Image,but few of them Know a damn thing about her. Ask that same person How she bacame Wonedr Woman. Or even what her Real name is and you will get a blank stare. Most of her fans and pretty much fan base stem from an old TV show.

DC comics is in the Business of selling comics. and Frankly that is one super power Wonder Woman just dose not have.. The trinity is old thinking. and if DC is ever gonna play in the same ball field with Marvel they need to stop benching thier star players.

The WB on the other hand is a diffrent story. No one wants to read Wonder Woman but if you do it right I think people will watch her. Wonder Woman needs to stop being the Token Girl and be played for her strengths.
You say that like Green Lantern (or any other DC character)is anywhere close to that level! Even the people who connect Green Lantern with being black, they don't know him as John Stewart, they know him as THE BLACK GUY. No one ever says "Green Lantern is supposed to be John Stewart." They say "Wasn't Green Lantern black?"

Saying Wonder Woman is playing token is the biggest bullshit statement you could make. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF FEMALE CHARACTERS in this fucking industry and not only do a lot of them share Diana's powerset they appear in more than one book unlike Diana.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that she relies on being a girl for her stardom and then shit on her sales. Because ALL female characters have low sales. You can't say that Wonder Woman doesn't deserve her ICONIC status because her book is shit right now, because you certainly weren't calling for Superman's head when Superman Returns was released or when he was fucking electric blue. Come up with a legit argument and maybe I'll take you sexist assholes seriously. You know what, I apologize. Maybe all of you aren't sexist, maybe some of you are just hardcore Green Lantern fans/apologists. Whatever you want to call yourself, do it quietly and draw any further attention to your ignorance because there is no excuse for it.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:49 PM   #28
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I'm not being sexist about it, like someone said earlier I think that the general public that knows wonder woman either only knows her from merchandise or the tv show.


Its kind of like supergirl, in the comics there was so much flux going on that unless you were an avid reader you wouldnt know what the hell was happening, but you didnt need to know any of that to wear a "supergirl" t shirt.

Same thing with wonder woman, you can get a wonder woman lunchbox without knowing anything about the issues because she is a symbol of a woman with power and thats what DC relies on for the marketing of merchandise.

Superman - Ultimate do gooder
Batman - Brains before brawn (gets kids to think before acting)
Wonder Woman - So that little girls have someone to look up to thats not and will have their parents by merchandise.


In the DC comic world her status in the trinity may be justified, in the real world her status is their for girls to have an option, just like John Stewart in JLU, its simply for the diversity.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:27 PM   #29
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In the DC comic world her status in the trinity may be justified, in the real world her status is their for girls to have an option, just like John Stewart in JLU, its simply for the diversity.
John Stewart may have started that way but because of the ongoing nature of comics he became a character in his own right. Same applies to Wonder Woman. She may have started off as a female empowerment cypher but over time has been allowed to grow. Bitching about her being inconsistently characterised makes no sense. We saw Hal going off to find himself and banging a 13 year old, we've seen Batman written as a murderous lunatic, we've seen Superman brandishing a mullet and a gun. That's part and parcel of ongoing, open ended titles.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:31 PM   #30
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I'm getting away from the comics aspect and talking about real world applications because if DC only used "wholesome" characters for its merchandising then neither wonder woman or batman would be there.

At this stage in the game Wonder Woman is more important as a Symbol than as an actual character.
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:07 PM   #31
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Thus cementing her status as part of the Trinity.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:10 PM   #32
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Wonder Woman [...] may have started off as a female empowerment cypher
Actually, she started out as a submission cypher. William Moulton-Marston was way into that whole BDSM stuff, that's why she ended up in bondage all the time.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:26 PM   #33
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It's kind of sad that we judge the icon status of a character based on their sales. The fact is most people are idiots and like garbage.

And I will mirror West's thoughts...WONDER WOMAN, FUCK YEA!

To me she's the most interesting character of the trinity. Superman and Batman are whiny little bitches compared to Wonder Woman. I'm supremely excited to see her get written by Brian Azzarello, as he did one of the best jobs of writing Wonder Woman in the Superman arc "For Tomorrow". If he can harness what he did for WW in that story as a guest character, I can't wait to read what he does for her with her own series.

If you have a character in need of empowerment, Azzarello is the man to call.

And anyone who doesn't like Wonder Woman's outfit is crazy. She has one of the best outfits in the history of comics. Which is why her's has been the least updated of the trinity. And fuck pants.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:45 PM   #34
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I think a contributing factor with regard to WW’s low sales is the lack of a recognizable rogues gallery. I’ve been reading DC since I was 10 and aside from Cheetah, who is nowhere near Diana’s level, Giganta, who is obscure and Circe, I can’t think of another female adversary that helps define her character.

Most male characters in DC have their evil opposite which can make for interesting, compelling storytelling, and if nothing else, a nice drag-out battle that would make the average Joe at least pick up the title and thumb through it.

I don’t collect Flash regularly anymore, but when Zoom is on the cover, you bet I’m picking it up. To add, Supes has Bizarro and a whole host of others (Metallo, Doomsday, Brainiac, etc.) , Bats has Joker and GL has Sinestro. Hell, I even know about characters’ opposites that I don’t read: Aquaman has Black Manta and Captain Marvel has Black Adam, but who does Diana have? Nobody off the top of my head. Give Diana an evil doppelganger that has her abilities and add a decent origin and sales would increase. I know I’d go out of my way to check out an issue like that.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:57 PM   #35
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But Black Manta isn't even close to being an opposite of Aquaman. And its not as if Sinestro and Hal ever had any real epic battles before Johns. Even the fight as Parallax wasn't huge. Wonder Woman is iconic, but her brand hasn't become as recognizable as others. I recently bought the WW encyclopedia and its filled with so many characters that are fucking OOZING with potential. So while there's no TYPICAL opposite version of Wonder Woman(excluding Ares or any other poorly defined Amazon/Amazon-esque character) that shouldn't hurt her. A lot of people say you are only as strong as your biggest rival. I think if you honestly believe that as a rule then you absolutely have to look at Wonder Woman, thee most interesting female in comics, as the starred/asterisked exception to that rule.

I suggest you go freshen up on your Wonder Woman history because there have been plenty of both female and male characters introduced in the Wonder Woman title that share her power set and similar origin.
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:09 PM   #36
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How many people know who Steve Trevor is?
How many people know who Lois Lane is?
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Old 07-05-2011, 08:42 PM   #37
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You say that like Green Lantern (or any other DC character)is anywhere close to that level! Even the people who connect Green Lantern with being black, they don't know him as John Stewart, they know him as THE BLACK GUY. No one ever says "Green Lantern is supposed to be John Stewart." They say "Wasn't Green Lantern black?"

Saying Wonder Woman is playing token is the biggest bullshit statement you could make. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF FEMALE CHARACTERS in this fucking industry and not only do a lot of them share Diana's powerset they appear in more than one book unlike Diana.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that she relies on being a girl for her stardom and then shit on her sales. Because ALL female characters have low sales. You can't say that Wonder Woman doesn't deserve her ICONIC status because her book is shit right now, because you certainly weren't calling for Superman's head when Superman Returns was released or when he was fucking electric blue. Come up with a legit argument and maybe I'll take you sexist assholes seriously. You know what, I apologize. Maybe all of you aren't sexist, maybe some of you are just hardcore Green Lantern fans/apologists. Whatever you want to call yourself, do it quietly and draw any further attention to your ignorance because there is no excuse for it.
Well west You have the right to your opinion no matter how wrong or rude it is. When did I even mention Green Lantern? Maybe you need to slow your fucking roll son.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:31 PM   #38
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I think Wonder Woman has always been lacking in the arch-nemesis department because she's based around another mythological universe. Thor has never really had one barring Loki. But that's because they're brothers, so that was easy to do.

She takes on the likes of Ares, Circes, Hades, and so on. None of these have ever been established as a memorable villain because we've already been exposed to these characters in other universes. Unlike Sinestro, Lex Luthor, The Joker, and so on. It's kind of difficult to find Wonder Woman's opposite in the annuls of mythological history.

To me this aspect of her character makes her the most interesting. She doesn't need a doppleganger of a villain to be interesting. It's her views on the weaknesses and strengths of humanity, and how her love is defined from that. And while all of that is going on, she's hands down the most bad ass warrior in DC comics (which is overlooked a lot). It's that dichotomy which gives her worth.

Honestly, "needing" a arch villain to make a hero interesting is nothing more than a crutch. It's certainly a crutch which makes stories interesting, but I wouldn't say it's always necessary. As West pointed out, WW is the perfect case.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:13 PM   #39
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To be honest. I like Wonder Woman. I think she has a pretty decent story. That said like many others I don't read her comic. However If she had a new show, I would give it a shot. But in comics she just can't pull the sales. Wich from a marketing stand point,makes it seem kinda dumb to pop her on every poster,that promotes comic books. The point is made that she is reconizable to a unreading comic public. How ever, DC comics is just that, Comics.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:29 PM   #40
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I think Wonder Woman has always been lacking in the arch-nemesis department because she's based around another mythological universe. Thor has never really had one barring Loki. But that's because they're brothers, so that was easy to do.
It's interesting that you mention that mythological association and another 'big' character who has also been re-invented (or replaced in the instances of Beta Ray Bill and Frog Thor).

I may have got the wrong impression but Thor, as far as past sales and title popularity go, has performed just as badly as Wonder Woman and might it be because both characters are maybe too tied into existing mythologies rather than being allowed to break free from them?

Fantasy and magic aren't the most popular of genres. Beside Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones, can you name any popular Fantasy TV or movie franchise?
Now name one that takes place in the present day (other than Buffy, Angel or Supernatural, two of which finished five or six years ago and all of which are arguably more horror than modern-fantasy)

Look back at the poll we had here a while back. Despite the question being biased against (pre-Ultimates-volume3)-Ultimate Thor in the Doobie Brother Thor vs. Classic Thor, his psuedo-realistic, non-asgard-involved image was (at least on this site) more popular than his classic mythological image.

The mythological image may be the weakness that is putting prospective readers off.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:36 PM   #41
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How many people know who Steve Trevor is?
How many people know who Lois Lane is?
How is that relevant to anything? Steve Trevor's lack popularity reflects poorly on Wonder Woman? How? Lois Lane isn't selling anything to anyone. What's your point?

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To be honest. I like Wonder Woman. I think she has a pretty decent story. That said like many others I don't read her comic. However If she had a new show, I would give it a shot. But in comics she just can't pull the sales. Wich from a marketing stand point,makes it seem kinda dumb to pop her on every poster,that promotes comic books. The point is made that she is reconizable to a unreading comic public. How ever, DC comics is just that, Comics.
So ask yourself why she still gets top billing if no one is reading her book? Because she's the best fucking female character in the business. And if that doesn't deserve top billing than nothing does.

Also, yes I'm rude because ignorance brings out the worst in me. But I'm not wrong. Nothing I said in that post was "wrong".
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:41 PM   #42
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Beside Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones, can you name any popular Fantasy TV or movie franchise?
King Arthur/Excalibur/Monty Python's Holy Grail etc.
Narnia.
Pirates of the Caribbean, to an extent.


Quote:
Now name one that takes place in the present day (other than Buffy, Angel or Supernatural, two of which finished five or six years ago and all of which are arguably more horror than modern-fantasy)
Harry Potter.
Percy Jackson.
Artemis Fowl.

I'm sorry, where are you going with this?
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:44 PM   #43
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How is that relevant to anything? Steve Trevor's lack popularity reflects poorly on Wonder Woman? How? Lois Lane isn't selling anything to anyone. What's your point?
I can't speak for Naysay's intention, but having a character the reader might identify with or see the characters feats with a base-level human comparison can help to tell a story.

Lois and Jimmy for Superman
Betty Ross and Rick Jones for Hulk
Pepper, Happy, Rhodey for Iron-Man
Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn for Buffy

It isn't always the case, but the supporting cast are the bridge between the reader and the character and lends them more humanity (whether the reader feels they need that or not)
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:49 PM   #44
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How is that relevant to anything? Steve Trevor's lack popularity reflects poorly on Wonder Woman? How? Lois Lane isn't selling anything to anyone. What's your point?



So ask yourself why she still gets top billing if no one is reading her book? Because she's the best fucking female character in the business. And if that doesn't deserve top billing than nothing does.

Also, yes I'm rude because ignorance brings out the worst in me. But I'm not wrong. Nothing I said in that post was "wrong".

So ask yourself why she still gets top billing if no one is reading her book?

No. Ask your self why she still gets billing, If you could calm your passion down and take an objective look it would become pretty clear to you as well.

Because she's the best fucking female character in the business. And if that doesn't deserve top billing than nothing does.

In what Business? selling comics? Wonder Woman can't sell a comic to save her life. That is not a opinion that is a FACT.

Also, yes I'm rude because ignorance brings out the worst in me. But I'm not wrong. Nothing I said in that post was "wrong

See you are wrong. But I am not going to be a jerk and say you are Ignorant, I am just going to assume that your passion for the character may be blinding you to some very unflatterying facts.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:55 PM   #45
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King Arthur/Excalibur/Monty Python's Holy Grail etc.
Narnia.
Pirates of the Caribbean, to an extent.
Okay, apart from Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, King Arthur and Narnia and (arguably) PotC, what Fantasy franchise has ever successfully broken out of their parent medium


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Harry Potter.
Percy Jackson.
Artemis Fowl.
I'll give you Harry Potter, but the other two haven't successfully left the medium in which they were created. Percy Jackson lasted one film and Artemis Fowl hasn't (that I know of) been picked up. While the books were popular, they didn't have the wider appeal which allowed them to cross the media boundary.


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I'm sorry, where are you going with this?
I added a bit more to my earlier post while you were replying (had to look for that old poll reference) The point being
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:59 PM   #46
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I would agree that Wonder Woman is a cultural icon. Even without the great knowledge of her character she has great market value; she a brand onto herself, much like the Superman and Batman logo.

I don't think because her character is based on mythology it hurts her at all, but rather people don't know how to write it so that it's relavant to modern times.

And yes, Wonder Woman suffers from writers trying to define her character. Is she a Amazon Warrior or a ambassador for peace, or both? Meaning, what's her purpose. Most of the popular characters listed above are crime fighters. Wonder Woman is not really known for fighting crime.

Wonder Woman needs a defining storyline that will make non-readers of her title pay attention, much like Sinestro Corps War did for Green Lantern.

So, I don't feel having an arch nemesis is a crutch. In fact, most heroic figures of mythology are known through the enemies they defeat. A nemesis reveals a hero's character and much as defines it.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:00 PM   #47
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I'm sorry, where are you going with this?
Sorry, the point being, if I'm actually allowed to submit this without the forum freezing up, is that classic fantasy/mythology doesn't have as wide an appeal as a contemporary origin/setting.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:02 PM   #48
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I can't speak for Naysay's intention, but having a character the reader might identify with or see the characters feats with a base-level human comparison can help to tell a story.

Lois and Jimmy for Superman
Betty Ross and Rick Jones for Hulk
Pepper, Happy, Rhodey for Iron-Man
Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn for Buffy

It isn't always the case, but the supporting cast are the bridge between the reader and the character and lends them more humanity (whether the reader feels they need that or not)
I know what a supporting cast is, but I don't understand how any of those characters are relevant to the iconic status of the Trinity. They make the character's stories a lot more interesting but that doesn't take away from an iconic status

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So ask yourself why she still gets top billing if no one is reading her book?

No. Ask your self why she still gets billing, If you could calm your passion down and take an objective look it would become pretty clear to you as well.

Because she's the best fucking female character in the business. And if that doesn't deserve top billing than nothing does.

In what Business? selling comics? Wonder Woman can't sell a comic to save her life. That is not a opinion that is a FACT.

Also, yes I'm rude because ignorance brings out the worst in me. But I'm not wrong. Nothing I said in that post was "wrong

See you are wrong. But I am not going to be a jerk and say you are Ignorant, I am just going to assume that your passion for the character may be blinding you to some very unflatterying facts.
Are we talking about comic sales or iconic status? Because her logo alone sells more tanktops than Superman comics. Have you maybe noticed that NO FEMALE comic book character sells? You don't think that's a reflection on the insane majority of male readership? And when I said "she's the best fucking character in the business", I meant CHARACTER. I meant the potential to tell fascinating stories. There are zillions of reasons why certain books don't sell and there are zillions of reasons why certain books are shit. Wonder Woman is no exception to this. I never once said she was looking down on other characters when it came to sells. But if we were to take your point of view then we'd have to make Deadpool an icon and give him top billing over all of Marvel characters. And if you go do some fact checking buddy, you'll see even Superman doesn't have very good sales. So go on continuing to hold Wonder Woman to some unwritten set of rules that are drastically different from the way you look at other books and continue living your life in the dark. My passion for Wonder Woman is out of respect, but my posts in this thread is out of logic.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:09 PM   #49
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Sorry, the point being, if I'm actually allowed to submit this without the forum freezing up, is that classic fantasy/mythology doesn't have as wide an appeal as a contemporary origin/setting.
Thing is, Wonder Woman is not set in a fantasy/mythology like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. Wonder Woman is part of the modern world, who's background is from another time/world. Wonder Woman is the essence of the modern woman, but no one knows how to write for her.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:11 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by W.West View Post
I know what a supporting cast is, but I don't understand how any of those characters are relevant to the iconic status of the Trinity. They make the character's stories a lot more interesting but that doesn't take away from an iconic status



Are we talking about comic sales or iconic status? Because her logo alone sells more tanktops than Superman comics. Have you maybe noticed that NO FEMALE comic book character sells? You don't think that's a reflection on the insane majority of male readership? And when I said "she's the best fucking character in the business", I meant CHARACTER. I meant the potential to tell fascinating stories. There are zillions of reasons why certain books don't sell and there are zillions of reasons why certain books are shit. Wonder Woman is no exception to this. I never once said she was looking down on other characters when it came to sells. But if we were to take your point of view then we'd have to make Deadpool an icon and give him top billing over all of Marvel characters. And if you go do some fact checking buddy, you'll see even Superman doesn't have very good sales. So go on continuing to hold Wonder Woman to some unwritten set of rules that are drastically different from the way you look at other books and continue living your life in the dark. My passion for Wonder Woman is out of respect, but my posts in this thread is out of logic.
Why the fuck do you insist on putting words in my mouth? When did I champion Superman.

Again check yourself or I am just going to block your coments.
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