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Old 07-05-2011, 11:16 PM   #51
Michael Heide
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Okay, apart from Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, King Arthur and Narnia and (arguably) PotC, what Fantasy franchise has ever successfully broken out of their parent medium
Dungeons and Dragons spawned a cartoon series, two bad movies and several volumes of comic books, the latest of which getting amazing reviews.

Bone got turned into two video games.

Zelda started as a video game and got turned into comic books, mangas and a bad cartoon, all of which quite successful.

The Last Unicorn started out as a novel and got turned into a massively successful animated movie and a comic book miniseries. It got a sequel, and hadn't the studio run out of money, we'd have gotten a live-action movie years ago.

Final Fantasy is another video game that got turned into two movies and spinoff games (Kingdom Hearts) that in turn got turned into mangas and other stuff.

Eragon got a movie.

And then there is Conan. Pulp magazines, comic books, movies, tv shows...

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I'll give you Harry Potter, but the other two haven't successfully left the medium in which they were created. Percy Jackson lasted one film and Artemis Fowl hasn't (that I know of) been picked up. While the books were popular, they didn't have the wider appeal which allowed them to cross the media boundary.
You're right. Artemis Fowl is still in the development stage. I guess I got carried away. But even without Percy and Artemis, we've got The Neverending Story, X-Files, Tomb Raider, and technically, one would have to count the horrendously-bad-but-massively-successful-Twilight-series.

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I added a bit more to my earlier post while you were replying (had to look for that old poll reference) The point being
I don't think that post was supposed to end there.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:20 PM   #52
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First off, it was just an example that RELATED TO THE THREAD TOPIC. Secondly, PLEASE DONT BLOCK ME! I desperately need your approval and attention. It fuels me.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:25 PM   #53
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Speaking as from someone on the outside looking in, why should I pick up WW? Sure, she's the first female in DC and a bad-ass warrior and all that, but there are very few recognizable, relatable characters and she has a piss poor rogues gallery. If anything, the mythology behind her character turns people off because it's not relatable.

If I'm the average collector, I shouldn't have to do research to exhume something that interests me. There should be a more prevalent selling point... and sales alone suggests that WW isn't interesting enough on her own and the fact that every time a new writer takes over and has to reinvent her characater proves it.

Over the past few years, the only thing I remember about Diana that was remotely water cooler worthy is her snapping Max Lord's neck (which is now moot) and changing costumes. She has no recognizable villain that would even urge me to pick up her book. Usually in comics, the villain defines the hero. When I see Zoom, Doomsday or even Black Adam on a cover, I instantly pick up the book and thumb through it. WW has nobody that makes me do that. If I didn't know anything about WW, she would appear to be a boring warrior that most people can't relate to.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:30 PM   #54
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Speaking as from someone on the outside looking in, why should I pick up WW? Sure, she's the first female in DC and a bad-ass warrior and all that, but there are very few recognizable, relatable characters and she has a piss poor rogues gallery. If anything, the mythology behind her character turns people off because it's not relatable.

If I'm the average collector, I shouldn't have to do research to exhume something that interests me. There should be a more prevalent selling point... and sales alone suggests that WW isn't interesting enough on her own and the fact that every time a new writer takes over and has to reinvent her characater proves it.

Over the past few years, the only thing I remember about Diana that was remotely water cooler worthy is her snapping Max Lord's neck (which is now moot) and changing costumes. She has no recognizable villain that would even urge me to pick up her book. Usually in comics, the villain defines the hero. When I see Zoom, Doomsday or even Black Adam on a cover, I instantly pick up the book and thumb through it. WW has nobody that makes me do that. If I didn't know anything about WW, she would appear to be a boring warrior that most people can't relate to.
Let me ask you this. If Wonder Woman had a cartoon where she was potrayed like she was In the Justice League cartoon would you watch it?
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:34 PM   #55
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Speaking as from someone on the outside looking in, why should I pick up WW? Sure, she's the first female in DC and a bad-ass warrior and all that, but there are very few recognizable, relatable characters and she has a piss poor rogues gallery. If anything, the mythology behind her character turns people off because it's not relatable.

If I'm the average collector, I shouldn't have to do research to exhume something that interests me. There should be a more prevalent selling point... and sales alone suggests that WW isn't interesting enough on her own and the fact that every time a new writer takes over and has to reinvent her characater proves it.

Over the past few years, the only thing I remember about Diana that was remotely water cooler worthy is her snapping Max Lord's neck (which is now moot) and changing costumes. She has no recognizable villain that would even urge me to pick up her book. Usually in comics, the villain defines the hero. When I see Zoom, Doomsday or even Black Adam on a cover, I instantly pick up the book and thumb through it. WW has nobody that makes me do that. If I didn't know anything about WW, she would appear to be a boring warrior that most people can't relate to.
What do you do when Zoom or Bizarro aren't on the covers? lol

I think you probably just need to read more of the character than you have. If you're saying copycat villains are the selling point for you then, yeah, you won't be enjoying many WW stories. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have interesting stories to tell. (Not to mention, assuming she's a "boring warrior" just seems a bit snobbish. What do you have against warriors?!) As far as Diana being relatable, again, you just need to read more. Superman is essentially a GOD and only because of the Kent's is he even slightly relatable to the average citizen. Diana is the same way. No, you weren't raised on an island of beautiful women warriors but the same themes that make Superman such an honorable hero are the same things that make Wonder Woman....Wonderful.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:37 PM   #56
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What do you do when Zoom or Bizarro aren't on the covers? lol

I think you probably just need to read more of the character than you have. If you're saying copycat villains are the selling point for you then, yeah, you won't be enjoying many WW stories. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have interesting stories to tell. (Not to mention, assuming she's a "boring warrior" just seems a bit snobbish. What do you have against warriors?!) As far as Diana being relatable, again, you just need to read more. Superman is essentially a GOD and only because of the Kent's is he even slightly relatable to the average citizen. Diana is the same way. No, you weren't raised on an island of beautiful women warriors but the same themes that make Superman such an honorable hero are the same things that make Wonder Woman....Wonderful.
Which is why I can't wait for Azzarello's take on Wonder Woman!
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:44 PM   #57
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Diana lacks a defining character growth experience and needs to be metaphor for something. Peter Parker learned the with great power comes great responsibility. Superman is a metaphor for truth and justice. Batman is a metaphor for vengeance. Wonder Woman/Diana lacks that kind of real character growth and symbolism. I mentioned she's the essence of the modern day woman, but she needs a heroic symbol to go allow with that. In short, Wonder Woman needs to represent something that can be relatable by both male and female.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:47 PM   #58
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What kind of question is this? We all know the really name of the trinity is Batman and his bitches.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:53 PM   #59
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Which is why I can't wait for Azzarello's take on Wonder Woman!
I'll be looking forward to Azzarello's take on Wonder Woman as well.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:53 PM   #60
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How is that relevant to anything? Steve Trevor's lack popularity reflects poorly on Wonder Woman? How? Lois Lane isn't selling anything to anyone. What's your point?
The point is people are AWARE of Wonder Woman but they don't know anything ABOUT Wonder Woman.

People know who Superman and Batman are... AND they know stuff ABOUT Superman and Batman.

Name recognition is meaningless in this context... everybody KNOWS the name Chuck Norris right now... does that make him culturally relevant? Or an Icon?

If you say yes... then you're an idiot.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:55 PM   #61
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I mentioned she's the essence of the modern day woman, but she needs a heroic symbol to go allow with that. In short, Wonder Woman needs to represent something that can be relatable by both male and female.
I'd argue that she's not even that.

She's the oldest most recognizeable female superhero and she has a memorable outfit and gimmick.

I would argue that the flash logo is JUST as recognizeable as the image of Wonder Woman in the USA but there's nothing particularly transcendent about any of the flashes....
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:00 AM   #62
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Let me ask you this. If Wonder Woman had a cartoon where she was potrayed like she was In the Justice League cartoon would you watch it?
Although she didn't do much for me in JL/JLU, I'd probably give it a chance... providing it's free... and even then, she really had no arch nemesis. All she had was a 1-shot battle with Circe (who should have been used more) and a bout with Lord Hades.

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What do you do when Zoom or Bizarro aren't on the covers? lol

I think you probably just need to read more of the character than you have. If you're saying copycat villains are the selling point for you then, yeah, you won't be enjoying many WW stories. But that doesn't mean she doesn't have interesting stories to tell. (Not to mention, assuming she's a "boring warrior" just seems a bit snobbish. What do you have against warriors?!) As far as Diana being relatable, again, you just need to read more. Superman is essentially a GOD and only because of the Kent's is he even slightly relatable to the average citizen. Diana is the same way. No, you weren't raised on an island of beautiful women warriors but the same themes that make Superman such an honorable hero are the same things that make Wonder Woman....Wonderful.
No Zoom on the cover = no buy. I never liked Bizarro anyway, I was just using him as an example. Doomsday, on the other hand sells books... at least for me.

I have nothing against warriors or even WW. Since we've all been arguing in circles and getting nowhere, I'm challenging you guys to give me a surface reason to read WW.

I can't speak for everyone, but along with my iconic heroes, I like iconic villains that define the heroes. They don't necessarily have to be doppelgangers or opposites, but someone that makes me notice them on the cover of a title. I stand by the fact that Diana is sorely lacking in that regard.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:06 AM   #63
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The point is people are AWARE of Wonder Woman but they don't know anything ABOUT Wonder Woman.
She spins around and has a lasso? That's more than people can say about Green Lantern. And yes, if you made a poll on the street today, you might be lucky and catch one of the two people that actually saw the movie without having been a fan first. But two years from now, GL will have fallen back out of the mainstream again. Wonder Woman will still be semi-famous.

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People know who Superman and Batman are... AND they know stuff ABOUT Superman and Batman.
Wonder Woman is not on the same level as Superman and Batman. But she's leagues above every other DC hero (except, perhaps, for Robin).

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Name recognition is meaningless in this context... everybody KNOWS the name Chuck Norris right now... does that make him culturally relevant?
Not culturally relevant...
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Or an Icon?
...but it does make him an icon.

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If you say yes... then you're an idiot.
Ah, the famous Naysay style. Yeah. Right. Be that way.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:12 AM   #64
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She spins around and has a lasso? That's more than people can say about Green Lantern. And yes, if you made a poll on the street today, you might be lucky and catch one of the two people that actually saw the movie without having been a fan first. But two years from now, GL will have fallen back out of the mainstream again. Wonder Woman will still be semi-famous.
I didn't realize we were talking about Green Lantern. I thought we were coming up with reasons that Wonder Woman isn't on par with Superman and Batman

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Wonder Woman is not on the same level as Superman and Batman. But she's leagues above every other DC hero (except, perhaps, for Robin).
Really? You don't think if you walked down the street people wouldn't recognize the name "Aquaman" or "The Flash" or "Plastic Man"? Maybe its a USA/Germany thing but I don't think Wonder Woman has that much of a higher profile over those names.

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Not culturally relevant...

...but it does make him an icon.
in the sense that anything is an icon (like the recycle bin icon on my pc desktop)... sure...

but does it make him among the most important movie stars? no.


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Ah, the famous Naysay style. Yeah. Right. Be that way.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:14 AM   #65
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I'd argue that she's not even that.

She's the oldest most recognizeable female superhero and she has a memorable outfit and gimmick.

I would argue that the flash logo is JUST as recognizeable as the image of Wonder Woman in the USA but there's nothing particularly transcendent about any of the flashes....
I'd agree the Flash is probably as recognizeable as image of Wonder Woman in the USA, and she's the oldest most recognizeable female superhero and she has a memorable outfit, but think people would also identify her as the female version of Superman. And that she's like the modern woman trying to make her mark in a world still dominated by men.

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I have nothing against warriors or even WW. Since we've all been arguing in circles and getting nowhere, I'm challenging you guys to give me a surface reason to read WW.

I can't speak for everyone, but along with my iconic heroes, I like iconic villains that define the heroes. They don't necessarily have to be doppelgangers or opposites, but someone that makes me notice them on the cover of a title. I stand by the fact that Diana is sorely lacking in that regard.
A surface reason would be she has a lineage much like Hercules and Thor and comes from another world like Superman. She uses her abilities to fight evil and protect the weak much like Batman. Those are superficial reasons.

I've been reading Wonder Woman over the last few years to see how they're trying to redefine her character yet again. Nothing sticks.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:20 AM   #66
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Diana lacks a defining character growth experience and needs to be metaphor for something. Peter Parker learned the with great power comes great responsibility. Superman is a metaphor for truth and justice. Batman is a metaphor for vengeance. Wonder Woman/Diana lacks that kind of real character growth and symbolism. I mentioned she's the essence of the modern day woman, but she needs a heroic symbol to go allow with that. In short, Wonder Woman needs to represent something that can be relatable by both male and female.
"Great power comes great responsibility" applies to all superheroes....
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:21 AM   #67
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I'd agree the Flash is probably as recognizeable as image of Wonder Woman in the USA, and she's the oldest most recognizeable female superhero and she has a memorable outfit, but think people would also identify her as the female version of Superman. And that she's like the modern woman trying to make her mark in a world still dominated by men.
I think you're giving too much credit to non comic book fans. I don't think most people would put that much thought into who she is or what shes all about.

I think if you did a man on the street poll about her you'd get a lot of "she's the bitch with the magic bracelets right? And she wears a bathing suit? yea I've heard of her. Did she fuck Aquaman?"
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:21 AM   #68
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"Great power comes great responsibility" applies to all superheroes....
and truth, justice and the American way applies to Captain America but it's Supermans line.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:27 AM   #69
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"Great power comes great responsibility" applies to all superheroes....
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Originally Posted by Dr. Naysay View Post
and truth, justice and the American way applies to Captain America but it's Supermans line.
Exactly. It's something that's defines the character and not just a label that's tossed about.



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I think you're giving too much credit to non comic book fans. I don't think most people would put that much thought into who she is or what shes all about.

I think if you did a man on the street poll about her you'd get a lot of "she's the bitch with the magic bracelets right? And she wears a bathing suit? yea I've heard of her. Did she fuck Aquaman?"
You're probably right.

However, I do think the average person on the street would recognize Wonder Woman as one of the oldest comic characters and rank her higher than Green Lantern, Flash and Aquaman. I think Lynda Carter had much to do with that.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:28 AM   #70
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The point is people are AWARE of Wonder Woman but they don't know anything ABOUT Wonder Woman.

People know who Superman and Batman are... AND they know stuff ABOUT Superman and Batman.

Name recognition is meaningless in this context... everybody KNOWS the name Chuck Norris right now... does that make him culturally relevant? Or an Icon?

If you say yes... then you're an idiot.
You're mixing arguments again though. Cultural relevance and iconic status are two different things. And are you really going to argue that BATMAN and SUPERMAN are relevant in our culture? They aren't actively doing anything that are defining the world. So let's keep that out of the discussion since NO comic character is culturally relevant, unless you want to start comparing mutants with the oppressed people of our world...

Knowing that Bruce's parents are dead and that Superman is an alien is hardly knowledge. And its definitely not what defines an icon. Because if that's the case then I'd argue that Jimmy Hendrix or even The Beatles aren't icons. I can only speak for my own lack of knowledge but do you really think the average person can tell you ANYTHING about the Beatles outside of their British? If that doesn't take away from their status, then the general "she's a warrior princess" is just as acceptable.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:31 AM   #71
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and truth, justice and the American way applies to Captain America but it's Supermans line.
Which means a silly catchphrase doesn't and SHOULDN'T define a character like he was suggesting. That's the type of shit that got Barry Allen's parents dead, the idea that there needs to be a moment where characters are more relatable by OUR own faults. Wonder Woman is relatable without the death of an Uncle or the fantasy of fighting for one sole entity.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:31 AM   #72
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I didn't realize we were talking about Green Lantern.
Then you haven't followed this discussion.
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I thought we were coming up with reasons that Wonder Woman isn't on par with Superman and Batman
She isn't. But she's closer to them than any other DC superhero (with the possible exception of Robin).

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Really? You don't think if you walked down the street people wouldn't recognize the name "Aquaman" or "The Flash" or "Plastic Man"?
You don't think that more people would be familiar with Wonder Woman than with Aquaman and Plastic Man combined?
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Maybe its a USA/Germany thing but I don't think Wonder Woman has that much of a higher profile over those names.
While it is possible that it's a Germany thing, I find it hard to believe that Aquaman is as famous as Wonder Woman.

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in the sense that anything is an icon (like the recycle bin icon on my pc desktop)... sure...
And in the sense that he's been ubiquotuous for a while, synonymous with invincibility and omnipotence. He's a pop-culture icon. It's impossible to namedrop him in any bigger crowd without getting at least one "Chuck Norris fact".

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but does it make him among the most important movie stars? no.
There's a difference between being famous and being important. Norris is famous, but not important. But are Superman and Batman important? Within their own little fictional universe, sure. But in the real world? They are about as important or unimportant as... Wonder Woman.

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What is that supposed to mean? An acronym I'm not familiar with? Or are you running out of arguments and bringing up the old Nazi... well, they aren't jokes, because they aren't funny, so... uh... hmmm... what are they? Anyway, if the latter is being the case, check your fucking spelling.
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:33 AM   #73
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Which means a silly catchphrase doesn't and SHOULDN'T define a character like he was suggesting. That's the type of shit that got Barry Allen's parents dead, the idea that there needs to be a moment where characters are more relatable by OUR own faults. Wonder Woman is relatable without the death of an Uncle or the fantasy of fighting for one sole entity.
Relatable? How so?
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:44 AM   #74
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I can relate to Wonder Woman. I don't have a steady selling comic Title either
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:54 AM   #75
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Relatable? How so?
Generally speaking...Diana is the woman who put her own family values aside to do the right thing. Her origin is her ignoring her mother's warning and doing something she was told not to. What kid hasn't disobeyed their parents so they can play with the toys they want to? Diana left her home to explore the world, to protect those who couldn't protect themselves. Now that may be a generic superhero thing but guess what, it applies to Diana just as much as it applies to any other hero. She makes mistakes like any other hero. Just because she was born on an island and raised to be a warrior doesn't mean she can't/doesn't have the same protective sensibilities that any other hero you can name has. How much do any of us really have in common with Batman? We aren't rich, and while we do suffer from the loss of loves ones, we aren't so stricken with grief that we're willing to take the load of ALL CRIME and rest it on our shoulders, otherwise, we'd have a lot more cops in this world...
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