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Old 01-06-2012, 02:01 AM   #1
AngryHAtter
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Question It Was Never About Magic

What Alan Scott did via the ring could never be construed as classic magic.
Magic ala D & D consists of at a minimum a somatic component - gestures of the hands...and a verbal component.

Does his use of the ring satisfy either? I don't think so.

In my mind, and yes, I realize how that parses out being the klein bottle incarnate, he is merely channeling energies.

So rather than a classical view in which Scott would be classified as a mage, he is more akin to a Jedi - channeling a power of universal proportions - which makes his character more of a warrior cleric?

But a magician? Never.

Whatcha think?
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:15 AM   #2
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I don't think Marty Nodell or Bill Finger knew anyone would create something called D+D over 70 years ago. Nor do I imagine D+D writes the rulebook on what's considered magic in fiction.

Thoughtful post though. Welcome to the boards!
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:22 AM   #3
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No, but as the new writers came and had to fit one line of history with another, they indeed did have the benefit of such aids.
Further, D&D has basis in classic literature for just those sort of things.

Merlin uttered words and made gestures.


And thanks!
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:33 AM   #4
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Well Alan has never been depicted as any kind of a master magician. He simply came into posession of a magical...tool. Basically, it's Aladdin's magic lamp.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:52 AM   #5
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Aladdin had to say a phrase or rub it to work the lamp, Scott does not.

Also I know, I've read whatever I've found on the subject, I remember being a wee lad and my mother handing me a comic with this wondrous emerald green glow to it.

I also realize I am arguing minutiae - which is how I earned my nerd status.
Are you saying the Starheart was doing Scott's bidding like the genie?
Since that is a retcon to begin with what of the original intent?

As the Scott saga continued, the power of the ring began to resemble what we take for granted as Jordan's ring.
The use of the 4th dimension to pass through walls, or his need to sock every bad guy into submission, changed in favor of a more "realistic superhero" approach.

Now Scott used the ring to project walls or to shield others, to melt street lamps...the supernatural element began to fade, so to speak and Hal's ring was emerging.

While it may have been the spark that led Nodell & Finger down the path they took, it was clearly evolving, as all comics do. I think it took on a more scientific nature as a mirror of the times. The atom bomb, the end of WWII,; it could be as simple as reacting to Marvel's Iron Man.

Do you see Scott as a Magician?

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Old 01-06-2012, 03:05 AM   #6
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The entire starheart thing is a retcon. That came WAY later when they wanted to make a stronger link between Earth 1 Earth 2's GL concepts.

I see Alan Scott as a warrior who was gifted with a magic instrument and used it for good. Not so much a magician like Dr Fate or Zatanna. He's just so powerful that crowd can't exclude him.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryHAtter View Post
Aladdin had to say a phrase or rub it to work the lamp, Scott does not.

Yes he does. He has to press his ring to his lantern and say his oath. This is akin to using a magic phrase to unlock a magical power, even if they played a bit loose with it in the original All-American Comics run.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #8
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This is turning into a trolling thread. Where's my fishing tackle?
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:59 PM   #9
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Why would you say that?

An intelligent discussion of Scott's basis of power is a troll?
Either you live in a nasty quadrant or perhaps you are the troll.

Otherwise, add to the discussion.

I, do not see Scott's power as being magic based. What was originally written, notwithstanding. He only had to recharge the ring; there was no incantation to use it.
And no gesticulating.
I likened his power to a Jedi - one who channels a force by will alone.

And thanks for the warm welcome.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:30 PM   #10
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That would be about right: his power is magic-based, but he himself is not magical or a magician. The parallels might be closer to some versions of King Arthur. In these, Excalibur was magical (though nowhere near the level of the ring or Aladdin's lamp) but Arthur wasn't a magician just because he wielded the sword.

Anyway, Noddel has made it clear that Aladdin's lamp was the main inspiration. He even wanted to name him Alan Ladd as a play on it, until he was told there was an actor with that name.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:36 PM   #11
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Okay.
Then how about this?

The difference between technology and magic is the breadth of a hair.
So Hal and Alan are really a lot closer than we imagine. They BOTH are just channeling a power beyond them.

If you watch Scott's power evolve over the course the series, he starts to resemble Hal more and more.
Fewer gouts of green flame and more usage of impenetrable walls, or "force field" applications of the ring. Big hands to clobber the villain instead of Scott having to physically beat the bad guy into submission.
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:27 PM   #12
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Yep. Pretty much.

In fact the retcon of the starheart brought them much closer. In that story line, even though it's still a collection of magic, the Guardians essentially made it into what the green light would be later.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:01 AM   #13
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There have been attempts to make Alan more magically inclined. He was part of a magical group that harrassed Fate (Jared Stevens). He recieved a magical eye made of green flame when he lost his in Infinite Crirsis (nevermind that he's supposed to be composed of entirely green flame). And he used to be in charge of Emerald City on the moon before he died.

D&D isn't the end all and be all of magic. People can use magic items without gestures or words. Magic swords being top of the list in that regard.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauntlet101010 View Post
There have been attempts to make Alan more magically inclined. He was part of a magical group that harrassed Fate (Jared Stevens). He recieved a magical eye made of green flame when he lost his in Infinite Crirsis (nevermind that he's supposed to be composed of entirely green flame). And he used to be in charge of Emerald City on the moon before he died.

D&D isn't the end all and be all of magic. People can use magic items without gestures or words. Magic swords being top of the list in that regard.
A sword is an artifact. We are talking about the wielders of magic.
Dr. Strange, Doctor Fate - yeah practitioners of the black arts.
Do you see Scott as the same type of superhero?

And I used D&D for the benefit of the audience HERE as I am quite a bit older than that.

Mages, Merlin, any classic mage had to gesticulate or repeat an incantation.
One can argue the oath being an incantation, but there was no requirement for any utterance of an oath...that was each according to the individual lantern.

Like I said, I see Scott as a sort of Jedi - without any training necessary.
He was given a light sabre and told he was to fight crime.

When the practice of retcon'ing began I understood the intent - to fit newer incarnations of heros into existing story lines. However some of it has been sheer revisionism - complete rewrites, the lines blur.
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:06 AM   #15
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Holy crap this conversation is pointless.

Y'all realize that "magic" isn't real right? There's no such thing as a "standard definition of magic" or "magic arts". It's whatever any given author wants it to be.

You can call the Green Lantern Corps rings technology or you can call them magic... it doesn't matter because they're fictional things so far outside the realm of possibility that they might as well be "magic".

Same with Superman. And Aquaman. And the Flash.

You can claim "Speed Force = Science" all day long but that's bullshit. The Flashes are magically tied into a magic force that allows them to do things that nobody else can.

That's magic.

This conversation is insane.
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryHAtter View Post
A sword is an artifact. We are talking about the wielders of magic.
Dr. Strange, Doctor Fate - yeah practitioners of the black arts.
Do you see Scott as the same type of superhero?

And I used D&D for the benefit of the audience HERE as I am quite a bit older than that.

Mages, Merlin, any classic mage had to gesticulate or repeat an incantation.
One can argue the oath being an incantation, but there was no requirement for any utterance of an oath...that was each according to the individual lantern.

Like I said, I see Scott as a sort of Jedi - without any training necessary.
He was given a light sabre and told he was to fight crime.

When the practice of retcon'ing began I understood the intent - to fit newer incarnations of heros into existing story lines. However some of it has been sheer revisionism - complete rewrites, the lines blur.
If you're going to insist that any and all magic users HAVE to wave their hands or utter a phrase to make their magic work, then by that definition Alan doesn't wield magic. I don't think that's quite right, though.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:28 AM   #17
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Okay, so cite some examples?

Lemme ask this - if you found Scott's ring, could you wield it?
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:43 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by AngryHAtter View Post
Okay, so cite some examples?

Lemme ask this - if you found Scott's ring, could you wield it?
Who's writing the story and is it more compelling if I can or more compelling if I can't?
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:40 AM   #19
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Who's writing the story and is it more compelling if I can or more compelling if I can't?
Wrong answer, the correct answer is do I have the battery? The "Rules of Magic" differ universe to universe, is Harry Potter a spell caster? Sure, now get rid of his wand, can he still cast spells? So Alan does not use the verbal and somatics to use his ring like in D&D. Actually he points the ring which would satisfy the somatic portion. Alan using he rings to get a charge from a lantern made from a meteor "that houses free chaos magic" -(the last part is a retcon), but the ring produces "occult" powers. That is why his beam was called an occult beam, his powers occult powers.
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I have yet to see Avatar, mainly because it is the plot of Pocahontas wrapped in a "Halo vs World of Warcraft" flavored, CGI heavy shell...and I've already seen Pocahontas and played all 5 Halos...so....
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Wrong answer, the correct answer is do I have the battery?
Right... because there's no way to write around that.

This thread continues to get dumber.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
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The "Rules of Magic" differ universe to universe, is Harry Potter a spell caster? Sure, now get rid of his wand, can he still cast spells?
I'm not sure I recall him ever doing so INTENTIONALLY, but yeah, he can still do magic without a wand. He inflated Aunt Marge without one. He made the glass on a snake display disappear before he even HAD a wand, or knew he was a wizard. But those didn't require any words or gestures.

I think trying to apply universal rules to what is and isn't magic, and how magic works, is a fool's errand. If the author says it is magic, then it is, and trying to argue differently is simply silly.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:15 PM   #22
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Unless one subscribes to the idea that the sentient planet Hal encountered in Vol. 2, #24 (The Strange World Named Green Lanternfrom 1963 was in fact Mogo. Obviously not an official stance, but one that makes so much sense that I really WISH somebody would write a story making it official.

Won't happen, of course, because the more recent notion that Mogo has always been the guidance system for the rings would preclude Hal having discovered him. Pity, since it would nicely explain why Abin Sur seemed to be solely responsible for instructing his ring on finding his replacement. Mogo hadn't been found yet!
So when you posit something not from the authors mouth, it's okay, but for me, it is silly?
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:29 PM   #23
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So when you posit something not from the authors mouth, it's okay, but for me, it is silly?
Huh? I'm not seeing the similarity.

I was simply stating something that I thought would be a really cool idea to make official, while at the same time acknowledging that it was NOT.

You were speaking as if you had some kind of authoritative reason to proclaim that Alan Scott's powers are NOT magical, no matter what the author might call them.

That's what I thought was silly. You weren't just suggesting something the author hadn't written, you were proclaiming that, based on something from a totally different source, on a topic that has no real history of being handled consistently by different authors, what the author was calling magic couldn't REALLY be considered magic.

Or at least, that's what it SEEMED like you were doing. I fully acknowledge that if I was wrong about that, it would be FAR from the first time I failed to correctly grasp another poster's point. However, you will note that I did NOT call YOU silly by name, I called that action, of dismissing the author's definition of magic in favor of some attempt at imposing a uniform definition of it, silly. So if that WASN'T what you were doing, then I wasn't really referring to you, anyway.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AngryHAtter View Post
Okay, so cite some examples?

Lemme ask this - if you found Scott's ring, could you wield it?
I vaguely recall a criminal trying to use his ring and getting burnt to a cinder for his efforts.

So I dunno.

Why make an example? You're dead set on insisting Alan doesn't use magic based on your own definition of magic use despite the source matieral clearly stating that he does. Clearly the act of putting on a magic ring and charging from his magic battery aren't arcane enough for you.

I mean, if Aladin uses magic because he rubs a lamb, but Alan doesn't even though he must put on his ring ... there's just no arguing the point with you.

Edit: As to the original question of Alan's classification... I'd say he's a warrior who uses a magical artifact. Like King Arthur, as Dave said before. However, later portrayals have steered him into the direction of more of a wizard, especially with the whole "Emerald Ciy" thing. I don't recall him every being called a wizard or a sorcerer, but ... at the end that seems to be what they were trying to go for.

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Old 06-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Edit: As to the original question of Alan's classification... I'd say he's a warrior who uses a magical artifact. Like King Arthur, as Dave said before. However, later portrayals have steered him into the direction of more of a wizard, especially with the whole "Emerald Ciy" thing. I don't recall him every being called a wizard or a sorcerer, but ... at the end that seems to be what they were trying to go for.
Is it really, or is it simply a display of proficiency?

Example being, you have two guys. One likes beer and porn. The other has studied martial arts and swordplay for nearly his entire life. Hand them a sword that blows farts. Guy A (beer & porn guy) can hack down a tree and blow farts. Guy B (ninja guy) can use the sword in a number of ways, including using its fart blowing power tactically and appropriately. It's still the same sword, but it's usage boils down to proficiency. Like with the creation of Emerald City and even his own answer to having his back broke, I personally think the eventual conversion is a display of his mastery of the Starheart/magic within the lantern.
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