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Old 11-07-2007, 06:08 PM   #26
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The opinion of Hal in Zero Hour is flawed becasue its following the people trying to stop him, and from their POV, pretty much all of the time. When we actually get scenes with just Hal, and his POV, we get the stuff like the image above. In ET he wasn't relishing in the decimation of his corpsmen, he was liking the fact taht he was clsoer and closer to the power he felt he needed, and even so, in that moment, he had snapped... everyone snaps, and people often regret the things they did when they snapped... add the powers of the GL and the intent to gain more power, and you get ET. It made Hal human, and his desire to fix everything was only multiplied by his actions.

He snapped, and then slowly lost his way, and then tried to redeem himself in Final Night... and when he became Spectre, he tried to make the full long and hard journey to redemption... bring Hal back after that and he truly would be the greatest of them all... being a man who had been on both sides, taking both full journeys... he would've been the most interesting character in the DCU... but all of that was thrown down the toilet when Johns introduced the fear bug. Plain and simple.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:58 AM   #27
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I wish I knew. I rather liked Jean Paul Valley.
So did I ... In fact, I liked him better as Bats than I like Bruce Wayne ... I actually think a story with JPV and Zauriel would be a cool thing ... It'd be an interesting read to see how Azrael and Zauriel get along ...
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Old 11-11-2007, 02:32 AM   #28
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Hal did go insane when Coast City was destroyed. We saw it in the GL "Return of Superman" tie-in. He couldn't handle his hometown being wiped out off the map when he had the power to stop it, and wasn't able to. He would have killed Mongul I had someone not said "Superman. Alive." and distracted him from his rage.
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:19 AM   #29
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If he was really insane then he would of said fuck Superman i'm gonna kill Mongul, ET was a mess that Geoff was able to make somewhat plausible without Rebirth it makes no sense.
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Old 11-14-2007, 03:26 AM   #30
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If he was really insane then he would of said fuck Superman i'm gonna kill Mongul, ET was a mess that Geoff was able to make somewhat plausible without Rebirth it makes no sense.
I think he blamed hank more than mongul
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:26 AM   #31
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If he was insane he wouldn't care he'd kill them both.
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:17 PM   #32
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If he was insane he wouldn't care he'd kill them both.
The mind in most cases is a complex thing... not an on/off switch.

Not everyone who is INSANE is also a homocidial maniac... but it helps.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:19 AM   #33
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Everyone can snap, and most people do from time to time... granted most people don't go off like Hal did, but it does happen, and usually in lesser circumstances. Hal snapping is entirely believable given the circumstances... and all his actions afterwards are as well, as his mind gets clouded with vanity of his powers and his desire to fix everything, both that was out of his control, and that which he did himself when he lost it in Emerald Twilight.

There is no way a fear bug could possibly be involved without completely removing all of Hal's thoughts as Parallax and most all of his lines, replacing them with others, if anything at all... not to mention stripping his journey as The Spectre completely out of canon... save for the appearances in Day of Judgment, Quiver, and Rebirth.

THAT is why the fear bug retcon doesn't work... THAT is why the fear bug retcon was a bad idea... and THAT is why the fear bug retcon has completely changed the character of Hal Jordan... and in my opinion, that's a terrible thing! NOTHING in the last 15 years of character development for Hal counts anymore, and he is again presented as the infallible silver age God like superhero, except NOW he doesn't have any weaknesses.

NO weakness + NO character flaws + NO new character development = BORING
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:18 AM   #34
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Hal snapping doesn't account for alot of things he did during ET and afterward which were explained and made sense of in Rebirth and there are alot of boring GL's thankfully Hal isn't one of them thanks to Geoff.
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:46 PM   #35
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Hal snapping doesn't account for alot of things he did during ET and afterward which were explained and made sense of in Rebirth and there are alot of boring GL's thankfully Hal isn't one of them thanks to Geoff.
Actually... Hal snapping accounts for everything that happened in ET. And would you be more accurate as to what things afterwards might you be referring to so that I may respond to such more accurately rather than just rambling off everything? All Rebirth did was write everything Hal did off as a bad hair day (literally), and weakly tried to explain the good he did as Hal breaking through Parallax's control. I'm sorry... all of that is an excuse not an explanation... it was a bullshit plot device used to make Hal perfect again, flat out, no questions asked.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:11 PM   #36
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It wasn't so much Coast City itself making himself insane as much as it was the Guardians sticking it to him right after Coast City, while he was in the middle of coping... like, the straw that broke the camel's back.

Ganthet has -- on at least a couple of occasions -- admitted the Guardians did very wrong by Hal.
When are the Guardians going to figure out that Ganthet is always right?
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:31 PM   #37
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Actually... Hal snapping accounts for everything that happened in ET. And would you be more accurate as to what things afterwards might you be referring to so that I may respond to such more accurately rather than just rambling off everything? All Rebirth did was write everything Hal did off as a bad hair day (literally), and weakly tried to explain the good he did as Hal breaking through Parallax's control. I'm sorry... all of that is an excuse not an explanation... it was a bullshit plot device used to make Hal perfect again, flat out, no questions asked.
Uh, sorry, but Hal "snapping" was the BS plot device, the "excuse, not an explanation" as it were. They needed him to do several out-of-character things to set up their desired new status quo, so they basically came up with that as a catch-all, no-thought plot device to blanket explain everything. Much like you accuse the fear-entity retcon of being (with, obviously, some justification), the difference being that thought and planning went into THAT, while Hal's insanity was a thrown-together on the spur of the moment thing, with no real attempt to make it work plausibly.

Hal "snapping" "accounts for everything" only in the sense that one can glibly throw out the notion that "crazy people could do ANYTHING" to "account" for stuff. I'm no psychiatrist, but I was under the impression that, even when one "snaps", the form one's insanity would take is somewhat influenced by the type of person one was. Blasting an unarmed friend to ashes does not, to me, seem like a believable manifestation of Hal's insanity. Nor does making a grim joke about maiming a colleague. Attacking the Guardians, now that I would believe. I would probably buy his delusional attempts to recreate Coast City with his ring, talking to his constructs as if they were real, if it had had any set-up at all (as it was I had to check the cover to make sure I hadn't missed an issue). And reluctantly battling his friends on his way to the Guardians, this I could also see (though he didn't seem all that reluctant in ET to me). And murdering Sinestro was absolutely in character for an unbalanced Hal Jordan, IMHO.

We've gone back and forth on this before, so I know we aren't going to see eye to eye, but I just thought I'd throw it out there again. As far as I'm concerned, Hal's sudden insanity was just as much of a contrived plot device as the Parallax entity. The only difference, IMHO, is that one of the two was much more carefully planned, and better executed, and it wasn't ET.
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:35 PM   #38
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I'll admit that Hal snapping was a BS plot device, too... but thats not the point. The point is that Hal snapping, given the circumstances, was at least plausible. Even you admit that given that Hal had snapped he could still do much of what he did. But the difference between the BS plot devices in ET and Rebirth is simple... ET did not write off everything that had happened before... it moved it all forward. Rebirth did the exact opposite, basically taking a big shit on all of what Hal had become since ET, and therefore all over the DCU by changging the facts and removing many things completely. Basically what my argument has been the whole time is that the Parallax entity was a terrible idea. You shouldn't replace one ill concieved plot device for another, especially one that effects the rest of the established DCU so much... I mean seriously... removing an entire 27 issue series from continuity is just insulting.

What I'm saying is that they missed an opportunity to make Hal the greatest of them all... there could be no greater hero than a man who became the greatest, fell, and became the worst, who then worked his way back to the top, redeeming himself through it all. Hal would still be in the stancee he is today, but the difference would be that his character would've been greatly developed in bringing him back... he would've finally achieved his change... not in the way he intended, but he would've been greater than anyone can possibly dream to be right now.

Instead of doing this, and paying respect to all the writers that did care, and keeping everything in continuity, they decided to bullshit a cop out and write everything off as possession, which, like I said, removed so many things from continuity that you literally cannot believe what you read in back issues anymore, becasue thats not how it happened, anymore. That is bad decision making, and even the greatest writer (which Johns probably is) can't make that decision a good one, because a bad decision like that makes the writing bad. Its the same thing Marz did with ET... the difference is that one took Hal to the dark side, and the other made it so Hal was never bad... he was controlled.

Thats the bullshit, and thats why I've lost most of my interest in the current GL run. JOHNS NEEDS LESS ACTION AND MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT TO REPLACE ALL OF WHICH HE REMOVED. You don't strip a character of his character and not replace it with anything... AND THEREIN LIES THE GREATEST PROBLEM OF THEM ALL.

Are my ramblings making any sense whatsoever?
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:50 PM   #39
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I'll admit that Hal snapping was a BS plot device, too... but thats not the point.
Well, for me that IS a big part of the point, but...

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The point is that Hal snapping, given the circumstances, was at least plausible. Even you admit that given that Hal had snapped he could still do much of what he did.
Much, not all, and even that sidesteps the issue of his snapping in the first place. That's a big "given" you are proposing. I have never denied that Hal snapping was plausible. In fact, I have stated a few, important changes that would have made it eminently plausible for me. I do deny that, IMHO at least, Hal snapping "given the circumstances" AS PRESENTED, was plausible. Frankly, I don't find this surprising, given that the circumstances that supposedly caused Hal to snap were never intended, when written, to do so. They were simply latched on to after the fact as something to point to, no matter that they were unconvincing, as they stood, as a catalyst for this kind of massive breakdown. (All IMHO, of course.)


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But the difference between the BS plot devices in ET and Rebirth is simple... ET did not write off everything that had happened before... it moved it all forward.
Uh, sorry, I don't see that. It basically tossed the entire past GL mythos into the crapper. It also ignored, IMHO, Hal's established characterization in order to have him snap in the way he did, in response to that stimulus. It also ignored John Stewart completely, and for all practical puposes, despite a few minor lines, removed Mosiac from any meaningful part of continuity.

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Rebirth did the exact opposite, basically taking a big shit on all of what Hal had become since ET, and therefore all over the DCU by changging the facts and removing many things completely. Basically what my argument has been the whole time is that the Parallax entity was a terrible idea. You shouldn't replace one ill concieved plot device for another, especially one that effects the rest of the established DCU so much... I mean seriously... removing an entire 27 issue series from continuity is just insulting.
Well, the events of the Spectre series got about the same amount of lip service as the events of Mosaic did, yet, IMHO, Mosaic was FAR superior to Hal's Spectre run, so you aren't going to get much sympathy from me there, even though I HAVE gone on record as saying that the brush-off that the Spectre series got (especially as it pertained to Sinestro's status as DEAD) was a major flaw in Rebirth, one that I feel could have been corrected quite easily without changing Rebirth in any significant way if they could have been bothered to put in a minimum of effort). (Boy, was THAT a run on sentence.)

I think, on the whole, ET "removed" a lot more than Rebirth did, even though I do find a lot of Johns' uneccessary minor retcons annoying.

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What I'm saying is that they missed an opportunity to make Hal the greatest of them all... there could be no greater hero than a man who became the greatest, fell, and became the worst, who then worked his way back to the top, redeeming himself through it all. Hal would still be in the stancee he is today, but the difference would be that his character would've been greatly developed in bringing him back... he would've finally achieved his change... not in the way he intended, but he would've been greater than anyone can possibly dream to be right now.
Well, I have said in the past (perhaps not here), I didn't have any problem with Hal not coming back. I could have enjoyed GL just as much if only the Corps had come back. (And I enjoyed it for years even without that.) But, for me at least, IF they were going to bring Hal back, as a GL, SOMETHING like Rebirth HAD to be done. In my mind, the character was just TOO damaged by the crimes they had heaped on him (some retroactively, like the deaths of the Guardians) to plausibly return to duty as a GL without some explanation that showed why his crimes were NOT just the result of an inherent character flaw, but were mitigated by SOMETHING else. I can sympathize with, and even forgive, somebody that commits horrible crimes in response to extraordinary provocation. But:

1.) I didn't think Hal's provocation was extreme enough for the actions that he took. When I can honestly say to myself that I think *I*, weak, normal human being that I am, would react better to a situation than Hal would, that doesn't help with sympathy for a hero.

2.) Even if I can forgive someone for their crimes, that doesn't mean I would be willing to put them back in the same position that led to their crimes in the first place. Forgiveness does not mean forgetfulness, or ignoring of dangers pointed to by past experiences.

3.) Given the voluntary nature of being a Green Lantern, I'd be a bit uncomfortable with Hal, having done what he had done, and taken full responsibility for it, actually being WILLING to be a GL again. The Spectre was one thing. That was power that was thrust upon him, which he COULDN'T just lay down. This would be him saying, "Yeah, I flipped, killed my friend, trashed the Corps, destroyed the universe, but I really THINK you should give me a ring again." I couldn't really respect that.

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Instead of doing this, and paying respect to all the writers that did care, and keeping everything in continuity, they decided to bullshit a cop out and write everything off as possession, which, like I said, removed so many things from continuity that you literally cannot believe what you read in back issues anymore, becasue thats not how it happened, anymore. That is bad decision making, and even the greatest writer (which Johns probably is) can't make that decision a good one, because a bad decision like that makes the writing bad. Its the same thing Marz did with ET... the difference is that one took Hal to the dark side, and the other made it so Hal was never bad... he was controlled.

Thats the bullshit, and thats why I've lost most of my interest in the current GL run. JOHNS NEEDS LESS ACTION AND MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT TO REPLACE ALL OF WHICH HE REMOVED. You don't strip a character of his character and not replace it with anything... AND THEREIN LIES THE GREATEST PROBLEM OF THEM ALL.

Are my ramblings making any sense whatsoever?
You do make sense, and there are many subjects on which I DO agree with you, but in the end, while both approaches are flawed, I honestly feel that Rebirth is LESS so. I could do with more character development in the current series, too. Or rather, I wish that some of the character development that I feel is IMPLIED in snippets between the action would get fleshed out an made more explicit.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:35 PM   #40
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Alright... I see your point, you see my point... I think I'll let it rest for now... perhaps sometime in the future I will give a detailed disection of both ET and Rebirth as I see them, but that likely won't happen for a while. As you can see from the reviews on the main web page here, I do love Rebirth... but I have my problems with it... but then I have problems with a lot of things.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:22 PM   #41
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Question: was the whole fear bug entirely GJs Idea? I admire GJ as a writer, and his stories are very enjoyable...but only while your reading them. the ramifications of his stories on the DC continuity are whats really annoying to me. like hal being perfect in every way, and(shudder) infinite crisis and the following 52 and countdown.
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:03 PM   #42
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Question: was the whole fear bug entirely GJs Idea? I admire GJ as a writer, and his stories are very enjoyable...but only while your reading them. the ramifications of his stories on the DC continuity are whats really annoying to me. like hal being perfect in every way, and(shudder) infinite crisis and the following 52 and countdown.
Can someone explain to me in what universe, "Not maiming and killing your friends and trying to destroy the universe to remake it in your own twisted image" equals "perfect in every way"? Cuz' is sure seems like clearing Hal of his various horrible crimes is equated with making him "perfect" an awful lot.

I mean, I've never done any of that stuff, OR driven drunk. I've never even killed a supervillain. I must be perfect, too!
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:14 PM   #43
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The "perfect" thing comes from two things... removing his dark side (through the Fear Bug) and removing his history with alcohol... without those two things, all you're left with is a fearless hero... and considering his biggest flaw is now that he thinks his father died in fear... c'mon... its stupid.
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Old 11-16-2007, 01:39 AM   #44
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My biggest pet peeve is that GJ tried to say that Hal's gray hair was somehow a manifestation of evil.

WTF?

Couldn't he just say that his hair had gone gray either through genetics (Yes, people can go gray early...I did) or that he was just older than the other contemporary heroes to begin with. Then when he was "reborn" his biological clock (literally) got spun backwards?

Talk about an unnecessary retcon.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:21 AM   #45
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Grey hair was unnecesary period, it was one of the many things that DC had done to Hal that made so sense and needed to be fixed, it'll always amaze me that people can buy into the crapfest that was ET with no problem then dumb on Rebirth that's insane to me.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:53 AM   #46
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Hal was given gray hair because he was old. How does that not make sense?
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Old 11-16-2007, 03:17 PM   #47
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Hal was given gray hair because he was old. How does that not make sense?
I was perfectly fine with the gray hair, though I presume that the "It doesn't make sense" comes in relation to the fact that he seemed to be the ONLY hero that was getting any older. Nobody else was showing their age, so why Hal? So actually, what didn't make sense was everybody else's continued youth, but the perception of "normality" is shaped by the majority, I guess.
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Old 11-16-2007, 03:34 PM   #48
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The "perfect" thing comes from two things... removing his dark side (through the Fear Bug) and removing his history with alcohol... without those two things, all you're left with is a fearless hero... and considering his biggest flaw is now that he thinks his father died in fear... c'mon... its stupid.
I think Hal still has a dark side. Just not the super-extreme one that they foisted on him. I mean, the guy now has a real temper on him. I know it has mostly been the butt of jokes, but his tendency to pop people in the jaw at slight provocation is not really ideal, IMHO. I mean, Sonar was imprisoned, and just talking trash, and Hal felt he needed to hit him so hard he would be unconscious for a while? That ain't good. (But yeah, I wish it had been made more clear that Hal's time as Parallax was more like Kyle's manifestation of Oblivion. Y'know, that the bad DID originate in some part of Hal's psyche, but was acted upon in a way that he would NEVER have done if he weren't being influenced/controlled. At the time of Rebirth, it seemed like this was a plausible, if not explicitly spelled out, interpretation. But with Marz's retcon of the Parallax entity as a total puppet master, that goes out the window.)

And I know this will probably mark me as something of a prude, but sleeping with people whose name you don't even remember isn't exactly a stellar character trait in my book.

Also his self-serving pride issue that led him to leave his ring behind whenever he flew is a bit of a flaw, too IMHO.

He doesn't seem capable of relating normally to his family, he has real commitment phobias, the guy isn't perfect by any means I would measure by. He IS a remarkable guy, but IMHO, ALL GLs SHOULD BE. (And are, too, again IMHO.)

Simply removing a single drunken driving incident (it was never portrayed as alcoholism), while IMHO unnecessary, does not make him perfect. Like I said, I never had one of those either, and I ain't perfect. Nor do I see where taking away universe-destroying from his list of hobbies makes him perfect, either. I know I am in danger of assigning motivations to people, but I know better than to totally generalize, so hopefully that will save me. BUT, it seems like SOME people that complain about Hal being made "perfect" aren't actually looking at the character honestly, but simply expressing their dissatisfaction with him being rehabilitated at ALL, especially to the point where he can once again take the lead in the main title.
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Old 11-18-2007, 04:57 PM   #49
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Are my ramblings making any sense whatsoever?
Somewhat. I can see why some folks haven't seen the kind of character development they like, the day in the life stories and such, in the new volume. But I've read a lot of Geoff's stuff and he does build character, he just seems to prefer doing it through the adversity the character overcomes instead of the quiet moments.

His Flash run was really similar in lot of ways. How will Wally react to this challenge via action, rather than kicking back and talking about it with his loved one.

I think the only real element GJ trashed was Hal's wanderer angst from Hard Traveling Heroes and the The Road Back. And I'm okay with that. His take is Hal has always known exactly what he wanted, and being a GL is part of that. Being a risk taker is part of that. Making decisions on the fly, the adreneline junkie, the women and the overconfidence are all being showcased throughout the run as character 'development' (or embracing bits of his last 15-years) -- all while he has the ring on, versus sitting around and thinking about it with his flight jacket on in a bar someplace.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a couple of comics with just that, Hal hanging with Guy and John at a baseball game, a dinner with Carol, just to talk or having a beer with Kyle at Warrior's bar, but I do think the character is being built up during the non-stop action.

As to the original post in the thread, I never bought into the insanity thing...



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Old 11-18-2007, 05:02 PM   #50
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind a couple of comics with just that, Hal hanging with Guy and John at a baseball game, a dinner with Carol, just to talk or having a beer with Kyle at Warrior's bar, but I do think the character is being built up during the non-stop action.
That would be great, and we would likely get some great exposition that would explain things more directly and from Hal's point of view... given an issue or two like that, I could easily see forgiving what had happened, but to side step it while using it directly (which is exactly what they have done with Parallax since Rebirth) frustrates me to no end.
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