Changes to the original concept

[Space Cop]

Originally Posted by Mister Ed

And that's the part I hated. Flew in the face of too much GL history AND wasn't even borne out by what we saw going forward aside from a few little moments (like with Batman trying the ring) designed to reinforce that notion.

It's definitely one of the worst retcons to me. If it were intrinsic to the character that he had to be constantly miserable, then that's one thing, but that obviously was not the case for decades before (and soon after even in Geoff's run he showed Hal making meaningless, fun constructs).

It's part of the appeal of superhero comics to me to think that it's actually fun to have super powers. Superman's flying wouldn't be as cool if it came at the expense of splitting migraines every time he hovered an inch off the ground. Green Lanterns make enough sacrifices in their lives without actually having to strain just doing their job.

[Trey Strain]

Carol Ferris doesn't need to own the company, any more than Hal or John need to run the GLC. Why does she? She can be the operations manager. Get back to the concept of Carl Ferris owning it. Their original relationship had more potential to generate story material in an Earth-based comic. Every character in a comic book doesn't need to be the boss. You don't see that in television or movies, do you? You don't make a character more interesting by putting him or her in charge of everything, let alone do you get better stories that way.

The last time I checked, Lois Lane was some kind of communications executive and Jimmy Olsen was a billionaire. How did that improve anything? The sales of Superman suck, so the readers obviously aren't getting caught up in it.

Giving your characters job promotions is the wrong way to get better stories out of them. You'll screw them up that way.

[Trey Strain]

Once I was on the phone with an IT guy because I needed some information. He said that it needed to come from a particular company, so he looked through a list of phone numbers there. He mentioned one person but then said, "Nah, he's the boss. He ain't gonna know shit."

I laughed because that was so true. The boss ain't gonna know shit. That's why nobody is interested in stories about him.

[Trey Strain]

Comics writers often do the same thing with their protagonists' powers. They tend to think they can improve a character by making him more powerful. Fanboys on message boards get excited about this too, arguing about which characters have the greatest power levels and who can beat up whom.

But I can't think of one instance where power inflation hasn't made a character suck more than he did before. For one thing, the writers have to amp up the powers of the villains too, so they can continue to threaten the amped-up heroes. So it becomes an arms race, and the stories become increasingly abstract and move farther and farther away from anything that really interests or concerns people.

The power rings have seen some wild fluctuations in their capabilities over the years, but at this point, the GLC is a military organization that can be threatened only by other Corps or by groups with similar capabilities.

That concept got readers excited for a while, but there's nowhere to go with it except down, because all you can do is to keep fighting the same battles. And down is where the franchise is headed, as the sales attest.

[Star-Lantern]

Originally Posted by Trey Strain

Once I was on the phone with an IT guy because I needed some information. He said that it needed to come from a particular company, so he looked through a list of phone numbers there. He mentioned one person but then said, "Nah, he's the boss. He ain't gonna know shit."

I laughed because that was so true. The boss ain't gonna know shit. That's why nobody is interested in stories about him.

I think that's a big blanket statement and a weird absolute. It depends on what the story is about and how it is written. Eddard Stark is the boss, and his story is extremely popular. If the story is about the boss being the boss, and the story is written well, then it's okay.

That said, I wouldn't mind Carl Ferris returning. If Carol is going to be Star Sapphire and go on extended leaves of absence, it actually works better to have the Carl Ferris character around so readers aren't wondering who is running Ferris Aircraft while Carol is doing whatever.

In the specific case of John Stewart, his being the boss hasn't done much, if anything, for him, because no writer has effectively explored that idea yet. Perhaps Cullen Bunn was trying to do that with Lost Army, but he got the rug pulled out from under him. The idea of Eddard Stark being the boss (and many other characters in his series) was effectively explored.

I also agree with all the people who think that power ring users shouldn't all somehow be equal. Nothing else in the world works like that. Well, maybe if the Green Lanterns were all the same model of Battledroid that would make some sense, but they're not. Not all swordsmen are sword masters, and so on.

And besides, that would make things A LOT less interesting.

[Trey Strain]

What I meant by that was, it's the people who are out where the rubber meets the road who know what's happening. That's where the action is. If the CEO doesn't show up for work, almost nobody notices. If the receptionist doesn't, then the office has a problem. Do you think the CEO would know what to do if he had to fill in for the receptionist for one day? He wouldn't have a clue.

Jimmy Olsen as a billionaire and Lois Lane as an executive isn't working. The writers didn't like Clark Kent having to take orders either, so they made him a blogger, but they had to back down from that. Geoff Johns flushed the Guardians and put Hal in charge, but then said, no, wait, John should be in charge. Neither idea went over.

Do you see a pattern there? Starting a character like Tony Stark off as the boss and getting him over that way is fine. But getting a character over when he already has a boss, and later promoting him to be the boss because you want to improve him, is reinventing the wheel.

It's hard to get a major character over today. It almost never happens any more. And redoing the deal you made with the readers about it long ago, because you're bored with what you're writing and you feel like getting creative, is a formula for failure.

[Space Cop]

Originally Posted by Trey Strain

...
Jimmy Olsen as a billionaire and Lois Lane as an executive isn't working. The writers didn't like Clark Kent having to take orders either, so they made him a blogger, but they had to back down from that. . .

None of those are still true. They're all back at the Planet now.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

You can only change the core concept so much before it gets away from the magic that made it click with fans in the first place. Hence why you see Marvel and DC go off the reservation with their franchises trying to generate interest, then reign themselves back in to the core concept. Every few years, rinse and repeat.

Right now with the Corps depleted to nothing, no Guardians or Oa and all these faggy color brigades about, is pretty much the equivilant to me of Superman Red/Blue, Spidey Clone, teenage Tony Stark, Thor Chick, or Azrael Batman. Wake me up when DC fixes it. It's not interesting to me what they are doing with the GLC. And none of Spy's ideas to tweak the concept work for me either. They all sound like bad fanfic. The series needs a Mark Waid type of writer on the book; one who has a built in following, is a good writer, and who is enough of a fan of the concept that they won't try to break it into a million pieces thinking they are the next Alan Moore deconstructing the thing.

[Trey Strain]

Originally Posted by Space Cop

None of those are still true. They're all back at the Planet now.

As I said, that's how it was the last time I checked. I'm glad they've backed down from that as well as from Clark's blogging, but it shows the tendencies of writers.

[Trey Strain]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

You can only change the core concept so much before it gets away from the magic that made it click with fans in the first place. Hence why you see Marvel and DC go off the reservation with their franchises trying to generate interest, then reign themselves back in to the core concept. Every few years, rinse and repeat.

Right now with the Corps depleted to nothing, no Guardians or Oa and all these faggy color brigades about, is pretty much the equivilant to me of Superman Red/Blue, Spidey Clone, teenage Tony Stark, Thor Chick, or Azrael Batman. Wake me up when DC fixes it. It's not interesting to me what they are doing with the GLC. And none of Spy's ideas to tweak the concept work for me either. They all sound like bad fanfic. The series needs a Mark Waid type of writer on the book; one who has a built in following, is a good writer, and who is enough of a fan of the concept that they won't try to break it into a million pieces thinking they are the next Alan Moore deconstructing the thing.

No, it doesn't need Mark Waid, and no, my ideas of flushing WILLPOWA and giant green egg beaters are not "bad fanfic." You haven't even read any fanfic. But you're welcome to think so.

[Trey Strain]

Re WILLPOWA: That concept makes me imagine that Hal is good at squeezing out especially large coprolites.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

Too much fun having the constructs. I don't want to live in a world where Green Lanterns don't use them.

Like a Boss:

[Trey Strain]

The last straw for me was when Kyle created a green dolphin for Aquaman to ride on when he transported him through space. "Please, no more," I thought.

[Big Blue Lantern]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

Too much fun having the constructs. I don't want to live in a world where Green Lanterns don't use them.

Like a Boss:

Still my all-time favorite:



Hal's Motorcycle was pretty sweet, too:

[Space Cop]

Originally Posted by Big Blue Lantern

Still my all-time favorite:

Kyle was great at constructs. He did the kind of stuff that made me a fan to begin with (even though character-wise, I'll always be a Hal man).

[Trey Strain]

Alan could still do the constructs in JSA because he'd have a different kind of ring. People who like them could still see them. They wouldn't go extinct. And a little of that stuff goes a long way, so putting them in JSA would make sufficient use of them.

[Trey Strain]

A writer who is going to update a concept or to get it back closer to its roots -- or to do a bit of both -- might need to stay on the title for a while to make sure everybody grasps what he's doing. Especially that the other writers get it.

But at some point -- two years at most -- he should be able to hand it off to any competent writer, and the title shouldn't then crash and burn. If it does, then his concept was no good.

A title can't depend on one particular writer. When people on the message boards say that only John Ostrander can write a Martian Manhunter comic, what they're really saying is that the concept of the MM can't support an ongoing.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

I think some characters are better off as supporting characters and are tough to do in their own ongoing series. The Silver Surfer, Spectre, and Deadman come to mind. I love the silver age Deadman strip in Strange Adventures that Andy Helfer eventually completed in the 80s. I don't think after that Deadman serves any good purpose other than being a guest star or doing cameos.

[Big Daddy Dave Skywalker]

I think some characters are better off as supporting characters and are tough to do in their own ongoing series. The Silver Surfer, Spectre, and Deadman come to mind. I love the silver age Deadman strip in Strange Adventures that Andy Helfer eventually completed in the 80s. I don't think after that Deadman serves any good purpose other than being a guest star or doing cameos.

And that's perfectly fine. Maybe Martian Manhunter IS best off limited to appearances as a JLA member. Nothing wrong with that.

[Trey Strain]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

I think some characters are better off as supporting characters and are tough to do in their own ongoing series. The Silver Surfer, Spectre, and Deadman come to mind. I love the silver age Deadman strip in Strange Adventures that Andy Helfer eventually completed in the 80s. I don't think after that Deadman serves any good purpose other than being a guest star or doing cameos.

And that's perfectly fine. Maybe Martian Manhunter IS best off limited to appearances as a JLA member. Nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with being on a team or in a teamup title. Ben Grimm is a good character but is not a solo star. Or even being tried out in a heel turn would be OK for some characters. I happen to think that the Spectre could sell a title, but he'd have to be powered down enough to fit on JLA or JSA. He'd have to be both on a team and in a Spectre title.

Anyway for people to say that, for example, only Geoff Johns can write Green Lantern is way off base. Maybe only Geoff can write his concept of it, but he's taken it so far from its roots that I'm not sure even he can do that any more.

[Trey Strain]

Besides powering the Spectre down to a reasonable level, you'd have to give him a supporting cast in his role as police detective Jim Corrigan. A Spectre title won't sell if it's cosmic in nature. That's the same reason the Silver Surfer and Dr. Fate can't sell an ongoing. Fanboys on message boards get thrilled by omnipotent characters, but comics like that never sell. What can you do after you get cosmic? Nothing! There's nowhere to go with that!

[Ωmega Man]

All any superhero genre character needs is an interesting life in and out of costume with enough human elements for some fans to latch onto something. Niche characters like supernaturals, cosmics, etc. need the same thing. Take Thor and Aquaman for example. For Thor there has to be equal parts Asgard and Earth, with Aquaman it's Atlantis [or some underwater kingdom] and the surface world. The problem with comics nowadays is its all about just making characters VISUALLY different using the PC approach, when most of the characters are 2 dimensional and very cardboard cutout-ish story wise.

Green Lantern, as it is now, just needs equal parts in space and in 2814 to make everyone happy. But it needs to be the characters with proven fanbases. Green Lanterns starring Hal and Kyle or Hal and John could be incredible. Let the other two four horsemen be Honor Guardsman stationed on Oa or perhaps the nearest sector house...

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

If comics have these problems, some of you might well be wondering how a television series can even be produced. When a new show goes on the air, probably at least eight episodes will be filmed before the first one is broadcast. So how do the people who write the earliest episodes know what to write about?

The answer is that each show has a series bible. That's where the concept is laid out very clearly. The writers receive a copy of it. They also get a copy of the pilot script.

Comics should adopt this method. The series, or the reboot, or whatever it is, should be laid out clearly beforehand, and not constructed on the fly. This would prevent a lot of what goes wrong in comics now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_(screenwriting)

[Ωmega Man]

A lot of times when comics get rebooted they have bibles. Morrison is known for doing it, and Warren Ellis mentioned it for the Wild Storm. This is common practice in various media. That something you're gonna claim six months from now a few dozen actual pros stole off of you I'm guessing?

LOL *rolls eyes*

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

Come to think of it though, DC would probably get Geoff to write the series bible for every title. Maybe even turn his doing so into an event. That would not be good.

For one thing, no one person could or should do all that. And for another, Geoff would rewrite all the bibles every month.

Sorry Geoff. I'm a fan. It's just that in the 1960s, DC wouldn't have let Julius Schwartz or John Broome write the bible for every title, right? We still friends?