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Old 12-29-2019, 03:31 AM   #1
Ωmega Man
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Question Worst SJW Changes in Comics

In the last decade and even before then the changing of a character's ethnicity, gender, and/or sexual preference has become too common in comics and other forms of media. At times in both DC and Marvel's vast history heroes have got what most refer to now as 'black sidekicks' who also take the premiere character's role every so often. This includes GL John Stewart, War Machine, and in more recent years across media we've been introduced to tokenized versions of Aqualad, Kid Flash, Mordo, Crimson Avenger, Valkyrie, Spider-Man, Superman, as well as several others. Other times a gender swap is also used to try and bring in more female readers. Just off the top of my head this includes Green Lantern, Thor, Capt. Marvel, and side characters like Electro, Smasher, Robin, etc. Indie characters such as the Shield and Solar have also been recast as females. Then every once in awhile TPTB decide to kick us in the feels and tell us that this character or that character is now gay. This includes but is certainly not limited to Iceman, GL Alan Scott, the Ray, Shatterstar, the aforementioned tokenized Aqualad, etc.

Now I'm not saying all of this is bad. There's a few success stories in there when you look at how popular the female Thor era became, and how much money Capt. Marvel made being sandwiched in between two Avengers films.

However, which ones though do you think were handled the worst? Could they have been handled better?

For me it's Iceman with the Ray coming in at a close second.

With Iceman and his history, it would've made much more sense if the character was bisexual. In the story itself the younger Bobby even questioned Jean telling him he was gay [which was just as out of character], but she was all "nope you're not bi, just gay." Now for a character who's only ever had one or two note-worthy relationships in the comics, it WOULD have added to a character like Beast.

With the Ray he just got hit with the SJW hammer hard. The new52 had it's own version that was Asian American, can't remember his name off hand, but his powers included illusion casting and hypnosis so despite having a sweet look I was turned off. Then a one-shot tale about a new spin on Earth X had the Freedom Fighters presented as minorities for like the last two pages, in which the Ray was now gay and it went on from there.

None of it had the same appeal as the version of Ray from the 90's. That version would've brought a lot more to the table in the Arrowverse in my opinion. Especially considering his fling with older hero Black Canary had him and GA at odds for awhile....
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:56 AM   #2
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With a few minor exceptions I haven't followed Marvel since the 90s. What's the deal with lady Thor? I think I heard it's Jane. What happened to real Thor?
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:44 AM   #3
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With a few minor exceptions I haven't followed Marvel since the 90s. What's the deal with lady Thor? I think I heard it's Jane. What happened to real Thor?
He was unworthy to lift his hammer for about one year, as a part of Jason Aaron's seven year run on the series. Jane Foster, however, was. He still appeared in the series and the spin-off Unworthy Thor. Since shortly after that one ended, the son of Odin has been Thor again, while she is the new Valkyrie.

My favorite SJW replacements of the last decade are Ryan Choi, Mister Terrific 2, JJ Thunder, John Henry Irons, James Rhodes, John Stewart, and Luke Cage as a member of the Fantastic Four.
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Old 12-30-2019, 02:29 PM   #4
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Yo.

.....John Henry? hunh. I guess never saw him as a Supes -replacement (atleast, not compared to Eradicator or Henshaw), let alone an SJW -ish one.

now, if we're talkin' Calvin Ellis/Kalel or Sunshine Superman OTOH......





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Old 12-30-2019, 05:32 PM   #5
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He was as much a Superman replacement as Sam Wilson was a Cap replacement. His spinoff book lasted longer, though.
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Old 12-30-2019, 07:46 PM   #6
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My favorite SJW replacements of the last decade are Ryan Choi, Mister Terrific 2, JJ Thunder, John Henry Irons, James Rhodes, John Stewart, and Luke Cage as a member of the Fantastic Four.
JJ Thunder couldn't have become a favorite in the last decade unless you were reading back issues. Since the New52 he's made what... 2 appearances maybe? And one was in the end of Doomsday Clock....

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He was as much a Superman replacement as Sam Wilson was a Cap replacement. His spinoff book lasted longer, though.
Ah the 90's. Back when characters like Steel, Superboy, Impulse, Robin, and Azreal all had monthlies lasting near 100 issues... which is all but completely unheard of today.

I'd forgot completely about Falcon as Cap. It's not that it was bad, it's just them making the OG Cap an agent of Hydra that pissed everybody off to no end.

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Makes me think about Blue Beetle. While I'm a fan of Jaime, kid's had like 3 or 4 monthlies that went nowhere. DC needs to accept that like characters created by Jack Kirby, characters created by Steve Ditko are just as legendary and profitable. Ted Kord and the Question both should've been on the top of an editor's to-do list long before now.
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Old 12-31-2019, 11:36 AM   #7
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I think Kyle’s retconned Hispanic heritage had to be one of the most pointless, ineffectual, nonsensical SJW changes. It had the advantage of not really messing with the character to the extent of some of the other examples brought up here, but that just makes it all the more pointless, IMHO. It was a difference that made no difference, other than to set up the specific story it appeared in, which wasn’t really worth it, even ignoring that it was contradicting the various hints and mysterious appearances related to his dad that had appeared before
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:12 PM   #8
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My biggest gripe with that specific retcon is that writers like Tom King reduce Kyle to a Latino stereotype that keeps praying in Spanish while clutching his proverbial pearls. Because he learned in his mid-twenties that the father he never knew had grown up in Mexico decades before he even met Kyle's mom. Ridiculous.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:13 PM   #9
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I mean, look at this nonsense:

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Old 01-01-2020, 03:59 AM   #10
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My biggest gripe with that specific retcon is that writers like Tom King reduce Kyle to a Latino stereotype that keeps praying in Spanish while clutching his proverbial pearls. Because he learned in his mid-twenties that the father he never knew had grown up in Mexico decades before he even met Kyle's mom. Ridiculous.
I actually thought that was one of the best elements of Omega Men. Overall, I wasn't all that invested in the story, but watching Kyle recite the GL Oath while saying the Lord's Prayer in Spanish was sweet.
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Old 01-01-2020, 04:05 AM   #11
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I actually thought that was one of the best elements of Omega Men. Overall, I wasn't all that invested in the story, but watching Kyle recite the GL Oath while saying the Lord's Prayer in Spanish was sweet.
Of course, they could’ve just done it within the context of his Irish heritage.
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Old 01-01-2020, 06:31 AM   #12
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Of course, they could’ve just done it within the context of his Irish heritage.
Sure, but I never had a problem with Kyle's big heritage reveal. I also talked to Darryl Banks recently and I brought up that DC had confirmed that Kyle's Mexican father is still canon. Darryl said that Kyle has always been "very popular in Latin America", so he was supportive of keeping his background as such.
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:30 AM   #13
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Kyle was popular with anime and manga fans too, but if it had been revealed he was part Asian and he immediately started speaking their languages it would've been just as out of character. It didn't turn me away from the character like the big Iceman controversy though. What's even more insulting than shoehorning Kyle to meet some minority quota in DC? When people in his supporting cast who don't have Hispanic backgrounds start using random words to help with the shoehorning. I give you example A:


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Old 01-03-2020, 04:18 PM   #14
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I don't mind Kyle being half Mexican one iota. What I do mind is Kyle continuously "finding" his father again because writers don't bother to do their homework and editors can't be bothered to actually edit anymore.

The biggest SJW thing that bothers me is the Earth-2 business with Alan Scott. They had the opportunity to craft something fresh and new with the JSA characters and right off the bat they force Alan Scott to be gay, simultaneously wiping out Jade and Obsidian from ever having been. For years and years Alan had been shown as a doting husband and father, and Jade was like freshly resurrected in "Brightest Day" when the "switch" happened. Very angering.
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Old 01-03-2020, 04:36 PM   #15
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The idiocy behind that whole Earth 2 business was that they removed a gay character, Obsidian, in order to make Alan Scott gay. This added nothing.
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:04 PM   #16
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Yo.

can I add Spider Womans new costume to this list? while I didn't mind it too much, the reasonong behind its creation annoyed me.

and ya know, for that matter add in Batgirls new outfit too (altho I think her's was just an attempt at avoiding further tumblr rage.....)
:/




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Old 01-03-2020, 05:15 PM   #17
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A while back, Green Lantern quietly became DC's diversity corner. It happened because there were several Lanterns, and there was the possibility of creating even more -- which Geoff did, after having been the very guy who moved Kyle aside to bring Hal back! And never mind that there were already too many of them.

Another factor was that GL was big enough to attract mainstream attention with this virtue signaling, but not as big as Superman or Batman, where it would have caused more resistance.

So we got a gay Alan, a half-Mexican Kyle, Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz.

Was that COOL or what?

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Old 01-04-2020, 12:20 AM   #18
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Yeah Batman totally doesn't have the most diversity...

Nightwing - Romanian
Batwoman - lesbian
Orphan - Asian
Signal - African American
Batwing - African American
Renee Montoya/Question 2.0 - Hispanic
Knight & Squire - European
Chief Man of Bats - Native American
Nightrunner - Muslim/French
Mr. Unknown/Batman Japan - Japanese
The rest of Batman Inc. - various
Azreal 2.0 - African American
Batgirl, Spoiler, and Huntress - Additional females

For the record I don't think any of these caused ANY resistance. All six Earth GL's tied to the GLC could be minorities and they STILL wouldn't beat out the Batman family when it comes to diversity. About the only group of characters that could however....

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The new Legion of Superheroes by Bendis has also taken a big SJW turn. Several characters were recreated as people of color [Lightning Lad, Light Lass, Ultra Boy, Shrinking Violet, Karate Kid, Cosmic Boy], and many that weren't were revamped to look more alien and/or have powers that directly effect their appearance [Sun Boy, Dream Girl, Princess Projectra, Element Lad, Star Boy]. And the last time I checked Invisible Kid was still just floating speech bubbles with no actual character ever being drawn. I'm almost certain he'll be revealed as something other than Caucasian.

EDIT: ^^^ And while I don't agree with all of them, I can understand not wanting the Legion to be a bunch of white folks visually with only three or four appearing as minority characters. Dawnstar, Tyroc, Gear, threeboot Starboy, and Invisible Kid II were the only ones who were non Caucasian that come to mind aside from characters like Shadow Lass who was always blue skinned. Making Karate Kid Asian in the threeboot made sense, but it also seemed stereotypical. With Bendis' current iteration of the team I look forward to seeing more of his fire skinned Sun Boy, the four-armed alien Doctor Fate, and the teen Jon Kent. If diversity was a big deal with Bendis though... I don't see why he WOULDN'T use a character like Tyroc.

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Old 01-04-2020, 01:31 PM   #19
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You were off ignore before I signed in, so I saw your trolling.

Let's see DC push a minority Batman, the way they've pushed all those minority Green Lanterns. Or better yet, let's see them get rid of Bruce and put a minority member in his place. You know, like they did with Alan Scott and Wally West.

They wouldn't dare do that. A character has to be of a certain level of popularity before they'll do it. He needs to be popular enough that people will care, and that company will therefore get attention for its "good deed," but not so popular that people will get pissed off about it.

That's the game the company is playing. Wally turned out to be too high up, and the blowback they got about it forced them to ignominiously back down.

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Old 01-05-2020, 12:11 AM   #20
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Let's see DC push a minority Batman, the way they've pushed all those minority Green Lanterns....
Cruz was mostly featured in a team title, same as the gay Alan Scott. Baz originally showed up in Green Lantern but wasn't a featured co-star until Green Lanterns where he had to be paired with Cruz.

Let's see... appearing in another characters title? Check. Appearing on a team book? Check. Appearing in a title featuring other minority characters? Check.

And if you wanna claim they didn't push Batwing.... his monthly comic lasted 35 consecutive issues before being cancelled. Of the last three volumes of Blue Beetle, only one made it to issue #36. And Batwing didn't have to share the spot-light in his series like Baz and Cruz did in GLs.

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It's totally fine if you wanna keep hating on Baz and Cruz. However, stating false facts like DC's never pushed a minority Batman doesn't help your argument. Just in case you haven't been to a comic shop in years... DC also pushed a Chinese Superman [called Super-Man] as well as a Justice League China.

Of course DC wouldn't be stupid enough to replace Clark or Bruce long term. It's not because they don't have the balls... it's because those two characters sell more than one monthly comic each. Green Lantern at best has two monthly comics with additional appearances in JL books and is a lot less of a gamble to shake-up. If Hal was featured in GL, GLC, a new Showcase Comics, GL/GA, Emerald Knights, GLC Honor Guard, etc. on a monthly basis he would've been a lot less likely to ever get replaced.
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:41 AM   #21
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And if you wanna claim they didn't push Batwing.... his monthly comic lasted 35 consecutive issues before being cancelled. Of the last three volumes of Blue Beetle, only one made it to issue #36.
We should mention that those 36 issues of Batwing (including #0) were split evenly between David Zavimbe and Luke Fox. These were two separate attempts trying to make Batwing happen, they just didn't relaunch with a new #1.
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Old 01-06-2020, 11:17 AM   #22
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Kyle was popular with anime and manga fans too, but if it had been revealed he was part Asian and he immediately started speaking their languages it would've been just as out of character. It didn't turn me away from the character like the big Iceman controversy though. What's even more insulting than shoehorning Kyle to meet some minority quota in DC? When people in his supporting cast who don't have Hispanic backgrounds start using random words to help with the shoehorning. I give you example A:

I never viewed it as insulting or out of character. Have you ever seen those 23 and Me commercials? People can and do find out that their heritages are different, sometimes strikingly so, than what they previously knew. That has an impact on some people and they might feel the need to explore that part of themselves. As humans have become more mobile over the last century, cultural blends have become more and more commonplace.

The Latino/Latina fans with whom I've spoken (granted, a small group) were excited about the reveal. As for his supporting cast occasionally using Spanish, I always chalked it up to running mates influencing one another, ala Ermey inspiring Kilowog to start calling everyone "Poozer."
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:11 PM   #23
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It was insulting because at this point Kyle had never even spoke Spanish himself. And I'm fairly certain Jade hadn't either. He found out about his heritage literally in print a month or two before that Secret Files and Origins issue. I know people can learn a new language fairly easy, I'm trying to pick up more Spanish myself because half the people I work with speak only that language. The problem for me and I'm sure at least a few others is that there was no in-between. Kyle went from something like Freddy Prinze Jr. [somebody who always spoke English and generally viewed as white by anybody that looks at him] to Mario Lopez over night.



Freddy Prinze Jr. was who I always looked at for reference when drawing Kyle. I wanted and hoped he'd play the character for years. Then after the reveal about Kyle's Mexican heritage... nothing needed to change in my mind visually or with his dialogue. Prinze was part Spanish himself! However what we're getting now is Kyle speaking more Spanish like he'd been doing it for years, and as Heide mentioned... clutching pearls in stereotypical fashion.

Has Kyle spoke any Gaelic lately? Because his Irish heritage was part of his character long before Judd Winick came on board with the Spanish heritage stuff. It's not right that one side of his history is completely pushed to the side in favor of something targeted at a minority or in Kyle's case minorities. Winick at that point in his career was most famous for appearing on MTV's Real World, and wrote a book about his friendship with a gay Spanish guy called Pedro & Me. He basically just started writing from what he knew and inserted an additional gay character [like there weren't plenty of those around Kyle's building already] and got a GLAAD award, then from there inserted Kyle's Mexican heritage. It would've made just as little sense to have Kyle start speaking fluent Spanish back then as it does now. Winick knew this, he's a somewhat capable writer, and Kyle was essentially the exact same character he always had been for the rest of his volume of GL. The only time his heritage had even been brought up after Winick's run was when he used his father's last name 'Vasquez' when infiltrating the Black Circle. Tom King however comes in claiming Kyle is "a popular Spanish character" like he'd been speaking Spanish and doing stereotypical Mexican stuff for years.

In his original run under the pen of Marz, Winick, and Raab, and hell even Grant Morrison using the character in JLA.... Kyle never spoke a word of Spanish. Kyle Rayner was never a popular Spanish character. He was a popular character with the Spanish tacked on afterwards because it's the only way DC could make him relevant. Prove me wrong.

EDIT: And as far as everything else the character has appeared in, I don't think his Spanish heritage ever came up when he was in GLC or HJ&theGLC. I never finished collecting New Guardians, so if Kyle was speaking Spanish and clutching pearls in that then forgive me for not being completely up to date with my reading. I'm sure the sales from his run of GL beat anything he had on New Guardians though.

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Old 01-06-2020, 03:56 PM   #24
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^Yeah, it's not so much a problem that he discovered a new aspect of his heritage and embraced it, but it feels like a retcon. I suspect he's not even supposed to be Irish anymore and certainly no one is mentioning it. Plus King's view of Kyle (in HiC) implied that he grew up saying rosaries in Spanish. At that point, they've moved from a story twist to a pandering retcon. But at least they didn't get silly enough to change his name to Rodriguez or something.
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Old 01-07-2020, 03:34 AM   #25
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He once went undercover under the name Vasquez. That's his father's retconned name.
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