How to make Legion sell

[Space Cop]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

I always viewed the Legion as a sibling the the Green Lantern franchise in terms of the size of the fanbase concepts and hooks to each series. I feel like maybe I SHOULD have been a fan, and tried it several times over the last 30 years, but LOSH never managed to keep me interested...

This is pretty much what I was trying to covey. It's a concept that seems like it should be right up my alley but it's never clicked for me.

[Trey Strain]

Does putting your all stories in a shared universe make them significantly worse? No. On balance it makes them a bit worse. But in the modern market, you can't do anything else.

The next time DC publishes an event, watch how excited how people get about it beforehand, not matter how bad it turns out to be.

LoS has got to be in on that. It's imperative for every ongoing.

[Mister Ed]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

That's a great point. From the 50s to today, there has never been a major, let alone minor attempt at a GLC/Legion crossover. Seems like a waste now that you mention it. You would think Levitz or Waid would have been all over that.

I seem to recall SOMETHING about a GL in the Legion era, but for the life of me I can't recall where or when it appeared. But yeah, certainly never a MAJOR effort to do this.

[-//V\\-]

Originally Posted by Mister Ed

I seem to recall SOMETHING about a GL in the Legion era, but for the life of me I can't recall where or when it appeared. But yeah, certainly never a MAJOR effort to do this.

There have been as many GL's in that future as different versions of the Legion.The most popular is Rond Vidar, who was a genius and secretly a GL after they'd been banished from operating on Earth. The next big one is Sodam Yat, who was prophesied to be the only remaining GLC member in the future. It was interesting in the LoSH just before the New52 they brought this up again and had Sodam bring about Diogene [who looked like a half cooked Guardian embryo] who then selected former villain Earth Man as the new GL of 2814. He was later succeeded by Mon-El.

The last two are Celeste McCauley and Cary Wren. The first is a living embodiment of the remaining willpower energy in this time period. The second is the descendant of Kyle Rayner who used the ring to battle an evil version of the GLC in the future.

________________________________________

But to the point.... Legion should crossover with the GLC. Hal and Cosmic Boy should have words. Saturn Girl should get in the head of Guy Gardner. John could give them tips to better fortify their HQ's foundation. Afterwards we don't just need a random GL in the Legion, however it'd be cool if a Red Lantern or even the Butcher entity became an enemy of the Legion's. God knows they only have like six decent villains...

DC can thank me now too. Nooch.

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

Yo Dave, maybe an LoS/GLC crossover could make a good story for bringing them to this time period.

[-//V\\-]

~//V\\~

[Space Cop]

Originally Posted by -//V\\-

There have been as many GL's in that future as different versions of the Legion.The most popular is Rond Vidar, who was a genius and secretly a GL after they'd been banished from operating on Earth. The next big one is Sodam Yat, who was prophesied to be the only remaining GLC member in the future. ...

I was going to post that I thought I remembered Sodom being the final GL then. Now that you say it, I remember both.

[-//V\\-]

I thought it was odd Saturn Girl showing up in Arkham over in Batman. What if all of a sudden Batman is the inspiration for the Legion? Maybe Superman could lead a new Outsiders too... LOL

Of course I'm kidding. Once Jon Kent gets a little older it'd be cool to see him visit the future, or maybe they could bring Superclone back and let him go Marty McFly...

~//V\\~

[Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I]

Originally Posted by -//V\\-

I thought it was odd Saturn Girl showing up in Arkham over in Batman. What if all of a sudden Batman is the inspiration for the Legion? Maybe Superman could lead a new Outsiders too... LOL

Of course I'm kidding. Once Jon Kent gets a little older it'd be cool to see him visit the future, or maybe they could bring Superclone back and let him go Marty McFly...

~//V\\~

The problem with tying any Superboy to the Legion now is that in a 10 year period, DC can go through another 3 Superboys. They never stick with a version for any real length of time anymore. The Legion books can't rely on it.

[-//V\\-]

They could always go with a descendant of Superman to give them their own S-person. Like Kent Shakespeare, Superman X, or that one female who turned out to be a Manhunter android?

Like the Teen Titans always having a Robin, there's always gonna have to be a Super-person showing up in Legion from time to time. They just change with whatever the mainstream universe does.

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

Re the loss of certain memories -- only the LoS will be subjected to that, and they'll undergo it voluntarily. The silliness that's going on now in the DCU with memory loss, in preparation for bringing the JSA to this time period, was made necessary only by the fact that nobody at DC thought to put the JSA here and now when they launched the New 52.

Instead they decided to build a brand new Earth 2 and an alternate JSA. That was my biggest complaint about the New 52. I said then that they should relaunch the Golden Age characters as new and young, in the present. Why not? That would have worked!

What they're doing now will also work though, as long as they don't water down the team with modern characters or give them a limited mission.

Bringing the LoS to the present will work too.

I betcha.

[Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I]

Originally Posted by Trey Strain

I said then that they should relaunch the Golden Age characters as new and young, in the present. Why not? That would have worked!

That would have sucked. Just like the 52 E2 titles did. The only way you can make the JSA young in the present is to have them bumped through time from WWII like Captain America. And even then it should only be temporary for a story arc. The JSA's appeal is their being anchored to the 1940s. Take that away and you have a team of shitbags like E2.





...You are welcome DC.

["Chosen"]

Originally Posted by Trey Strain

Bringing the LoS to the present will work too.

I betcha.

Legion Lost would like a word with you..

[Trey Strain]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I

That would have sucked. Just like the 52 E2 titles did. The only way you can make the JSA young in the present is to have them bumped through time from WWII like Captain America. And even then it should only be temporary for a story arc. The JSA's appeal is their being anchored to the 1940s. Take that away and you have a team of shitbags like E2.

...You are welcome DC.

It won't sell that way, Dave. Just like LoS set in the future won't sell.

If a property is performing, you need to leave it alone. If it's underperforming or (like LoS) not performing at all, then you need to change it.

In comics, things tend to get done the other way around. That is, stuff that's making money gets changed, but stuff that's not making money stays the same.

Why? Because of people's egos. No creartor wants to change a property that's not selling, because its continuing to not sell would be his responsibility. They want to change something that's already selling, so they can claim credit for its selling, even though it was going to keep selling anyway unless they completely screwed it up.

There's no possible argument to make against changing something that's bringing in ZERO revenue. You've got to do it.

[Trey Strain]

RE WWII: The United States was involved in ground fighting in Europe for less than a year. And it happened more than 70 years ago. An ongoing comic that's set then will get a few old-time fans excited, but it won't fly. It would be a niche ongoing, which are impossible to sell now.

You could do flashback minis of the JSA that are set then. But not an ongoing.

["Chosen"]

Ok, how would you explain video games like Call of Duty and Battlefield that WW1&2 versions of the franchise selling more than present day war stories?

[Trey Strain]

Originally Posted by "Chosen"

Ok, how would you explain video games like Call of Duty and Battlefield that WW1&2 versions of the franchise selling more than present day war stories?

This is comics. It's a different medium. For good or for bad, DC and Marvel are about their shared universes. That's not going to change.

Ongoings that are set in the past or the future, or in an alternate reality, won't sell. That's been demonstrated again and again. DC and Marvel are free to keep trying to make them work, but if I were them, I would not like to explain my doing that to my stockholders.

[-//V\\-]

I liked the JSA when there were older members as well as newer legacy heroes in the cast. It only started to suck when people like Magog, Amazing Man, Americommando [or was he Mr. America now?], etc. joined the JSA with no real ties to it.

Geoff wanted to use the Ray during that iteration but was given a veto by the editors over the Freedom Fighters comics at the time. Apparently when the REAL Ray [90's Ray Terrill] showed up and outed the new Ray [Stan Silver] as working with the enemies of the FF's... the book had a significant bump in sales that issue and the last of that mini series.

Bringing characters in like Stargirl, Atom Smasher, Sand, Tomcat, and Damage are fine... it's bringing in characters with NO ties to past members that makes it feel convoluted. Lightning joined but Black Lightning's NEVER been on the team. Cyclone's aunt or grandmother or whatever was the crossdressing Red Tornado of the 40's so she wasn't as bad. Amazing Man always had ties to the JL in the past. Magog and Judomaster were completely out of left field. Mr. America made no sense.

____________________________

Back to the topic of the Legion... I think a new approach would be fitting since it's always the same old same old [though the Threeboot DID do some stuff different]. I'd have like three or four classic members return and lead a new generation after their last big battle with enemies wiped out over half their team. Introduce NEW characters based on the older aliens and concepts introduced in Legion. Make the mentors something like Dawnstar, Ultra Boy, Shadow Lass, and Cosmic Boy and then introduce a few newer members. Just not Comet Queen, Dragonwing, etc. from older Legion Academy books/arcs.

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

If you own a company, then you can do whatever you want, as long as you can pay your bills. But if you're running a publicly owned company, then it's not your money that you're spending. You're there to earn your shareholders the best possible return on their investment. Continuing to do things that you like to do but that have been shown not to make money is a dereliction of your duty.

[-//V\\-]

Dave & Chosen

Your ideas won't work because they're not Trey's. They'd flourish in his proposed minis, and if not who cares. He's willing to change everything for no reason [other than HIS ego, because he wants to change everything]. There's no bringing real facts into the argument. He'd sink DC in a similar fashion to what's going on with Marvel but he'd bring less diversity and not give two shits if it appeals to anybody. Readers of the past, readers from three years ago, who cares about them? If it doesn't sell just change it back to what it was that was selling slightly more, but still less than what DC wanted. No harm no foul.

LMAO.

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

i can't read your posts, Home. Anyway as John Lennon said when the Beatles broke up -- if you like our old records, there are plenty of them for you to enjoy. We don't need to make any new ones. Besides, we can't stand to work with each other any more.

It's the same with old concepts that the market will no longer support. There are plenty of old issues for their fans to read. They don't need new issues that are impractical to publish.

["Chosen"]

Originally Posted by -//V\\-

Dave & Chosen

Your ideas won't work because they're not Trey's. They'd flourish in his proposed minis, and if not who cares. He's willing to change everything for no reason [other than HIS ego, because he wants to change everything]. There's no bringing real facts into the argument. He'd sink DC in a similar fashion to what's going on with Marvel but he'd bring less diversity and not give two shits if it appeals to anybody. Readers of the past, readers from three years ago, who cares about them? If it doesn't sell just change it back to what it was that was selling slightly more, but still less than what DC wanted. No harm no foul.

LMAO.

~//V\\~

Originally Posted by Trey Strain

i can't read your posts, Home.

Fixed

[-//V\\-]

I wouldn't wanna read posts either if they made all of my points completely invalid with facts.

~//V\\~

[Trey Strain]

What I'm saying isn't rocket science. Sooner or later everyone at DC will realize that they can't sell ongoings that they've separated from their shared universe, or niche comics, or comics that are designed to be B titles. Then they'll take the logical steps with all their properties.

They'll probably even stop reinventing properties that are already selling, and instead start reinventing properties that are not selling. But that realization will take longer to sink in.

[Big Daddy Dave Targaryen I]

I would rather a pet franchise of mine NOT be used at all if the plan is to change the core concept. Young hip JSAers from the present, in the present? Why bother? We just saw what a disaster that was in the last 2 E2 series. Legion in the present? Didn't work last time. Green Lantern Corps with no constructs? Can we suck any more of the appeal away? These titles would be better off dormant than to have these bad fan fic ideas come to pass.

Sometimes it's best for comic companies to NOT listen to fans, because they don't know what the hell they are doing.