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Old 03-16-2020, 11:52 AM   #1226
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I may be wrong about this, but I think ABC (or whatever network its on) may be streaming it for free. Legally.
Only episode one (I just double checked) and I don't want to watch it until I'm ready for the rest. You need CBS All Access for the rest.
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:38 PM   #1227
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I swore I would never come back to this thread for reasons surrounding my last visit how ever many years ago, but I need to say this.....


I FREAKING LOVE STAR TREK: PICARD.


Although I could do without the cussing.....but a minor detail.
The more I read about it, the more I can tell that I have no interest in seeing it. If your Star Trek show is set in a dystopian future, you're doing it wrong, IMHO. I also find the reports of liberal profanity disheartening, and scenes of graphic torture? That's the sort of thing that makes me averse to the idea of Tarantino doing a Trek film. It has no place in a Trek show (again, IMHO). It sounds like the production has fallen prey to the stereotypical attitude so many non-broadcast network productions seem to have, "Hey, we don't have to deal with network standards! Let's make our show edgy and dark, with profanity, graphic violence, the whole shebang! Just because we can! Doesn't matter if we are doing a show rooted in a property that isn't about any of that."

I'd love to see the old Star Trek gang again. I love Patrick Stewart in the Picard role. But if they are going to change the universe as drastically in tone as it seems like they have...I fear it would simply tarnish the memories I have. I'll stick to the novels, at least until the day (which I fear may now be inevitable) where they feel compelled to steer them into the path set by this show (as it has already contradicted any number of things depicted in the novels, despite being set in a different time).
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:46 PM   #1228
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Only episode one (I just double checked) and I don't want to watch it until I'm ready for the rest. You need CBS All Access for the rest.
Heh, that might explain what I heard from various people that the first episode seems more in line with the tone of the older stuff.
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Old 03-18-2020, 02:50 AM   #1229
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I won't say that I hate Picard but... the latest episodes make it very difficult not to.
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:35 AM   #1230
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I just finished the first season, and it was really REALLY good. Seriously, forget what you think about political blah blah blah, or any vapid critical whinery people like to throw out at everything these days and just give it a go. Seriously, it's not bad, annoying, or any of that. It's just Star Trek.

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The more I read about it, the more I can tell that I have no interest in seeing it. If your Star Trek show is set in a dystopian future, you're doing it wrong, IMHO. I also find the reports of liberal profanity disheartening, and scenes of graphic torture? That's the sort of thing that makes me averse to the idea of Tarantino doing a Trek film. It has no place in a Trek show (again, IMHO).
It's not a dystopian future, it's just 14 years after the Romulan disaster, so it's sort of post apocalyptic for Romulans, but Earth is still normal, Starfleet is just as it always is, and the Federation is fine.

As for the language, yeah I don't think it needs to be there, either, but it makes sense for people to speak like people speak, and even with the usage, it's never more than two or three per episode (I honestly don't think there's ever more than two per episode, but I may have missed one here or there). Furthermore, it's never the people we knew before saying them, showing that some people swear and some people don't, just like in real life, and we've just been following people who don't before. Ultimately, it's just not that intrusive.

Concerning scenes of graphic torture? They don't really exist, at least not as you may think of it as torture. There is a subplot about reclaiming people who were assimilated by the Borg, and so we see some people having Borg pieces removed. In particular, there is a flashback scene involving such a removal (albeit in a different situation than the others), with the person in question being awake while it's happening with some screaming and blood. But it's not really much worse than what we saw in First Contact, the lighting is just better so the blood looks properly red.

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I'd love to see the old Star Trek gang again. I love Patrick Stewart in the Picard role. But if they are going to change the universe as drastically in tone as it seems like they have...I fear it would simply tarnish the memories I have.
They haven't changed the tone at all, really. Everything in the show (save for the language) has precedent in the franchise. The plot takes elements used in the various previous series and films and keeps moving them forward. It is Star Trek in its soul, and is such far more than anything with the title has been in 20 years.

Basically what I'm saying is that your feared issues aren't really there.
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:55 AM   #1231
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Well, my real fear and issue is that I'd have to pay extra to watch it.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:26 AM   #1232
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Well, my real fear and issue is that I'd have to pay extra to watch it.
You can get CBS All Access for free for a month right now. They usually only have a seven day trial, but they extended it recently due to the social distancing thing.
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:39 PM   #1233
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You can get CBS All Access for free for a month right now. They usually only have a seven day trial, but they extended it recently due to the social distancing thing.
Do they have all the episodes or only a couple weeks?
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:28 PM   #1234
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Do they have all the episodes or only a couple weeks?
While the show released weekly, the entire season has now been released, so it's all on there right now.
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Old 03-30-2020, 04:43 PM   #1235
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I just finished the first season, and it was really REALLY good. Seriously, forget what you think about political blah blah blah, or any vapid critical whinery people like to throw out at everything these days and just give it a go. Seriously, it's not bad, annoying, or any of that. It's just Star Trek.

It's not a dystopian future, it's just 14 years after the Romulan disaster, so it's sort of post apocalyptic for Romulans, but Earth is still normal, Starfleet is just as it always is, and the Federation is fine.

As for the language, yeah I don't think it needs to be there, either, but it makes sense for people to speak like people speak, and even with the usage, it's never more than two or three per episode (I honestly don't think there's ever more than two per episode, but I may have missed one here or there). Furthermore, it's never the people we knew before saying them, showing that some people swear and some people don't, just like in real life, and we've just been following people who don't before. Ultimately, it's just not that intrusive.

Concerning scenes of graphic torture? They don't really exist, at least not as you may think of it as torture. There is a subplot about reclaiming people who were assimilated by the Borg, and so we see some people having Borg pieces removed. In particular, there is a flashback scene involving such a removal (albeit in a different situation than the others), with the person in question being awake while it's happening with some screaming and blood. But it's not really much worse than what we saw in First Contact, the lighting is just better so the blood looks properly red.

They haven't changed the tone at all, really. Everything in the show (save for the language) has precedent in the franchise. The plot takes elements used in the various previous series and films and keeps moving them forward. It is Star Trek in its soul, and is such far more than anything with the title has been in 20 years.

Basically what I'm saying is that your feared issues aren't really there.
Well, your description doesn't convince me that the violence is at the standard level for a ST show, and still sounds above what we saw in First Contact to me.

As for the tone changing and it not being dystopian, from what I've heard the fact that Picard is not in Starfleet (which seems to be a foundational aspect of the show) is quite indicative that, while Starfleet and the Federation are still there, they are not "just as it always was" and "fine", but are portrayed as having undergone a moral/ethical decay. Descriptions of various episodes seem to underline that view.

Even if it were true that "everything has precedent", it is possible to have a much darker tone while only using things that we've seen before, simply by making them the rule rather than the exception. For instance, there have been plenty of character deaths on ST shows and movies in the past, but they have been used sparingly for characters that we got to know at all. Here it sounds like every returning character that wasn't a main cast member (three that I know of) was dead in short order. In a season of only 10 episodes, that seems rather high to me, and points to a significantly darker tone.

And the language is totally unnecessary, and out of character for the franchise, IMHO. I don't really care if people think I'm just a stick in the mud, but "people talking like people talk" has never been a very convincing argument, especially in a setting that is not our modern world, and has avoided it in the past. There are certainly settings and genres in which avoiding profanity would be absurd and unrealistic enough to harm any sense of realism, but I don't think this is one of them, and I tend to mostly avoid the ones that are, for various reasons, of which the language is only one.

My concerns are basically heightened by the fact that I'm NOT getting my dim view by reading the opinions of people who despise the show, I'm getting bad vibes off the descriptions put out by people who LIKE the show, and are talking about how great it is. If I'm turned off the show by what I hear about it from people who think it is great, then I'm not inclined to invest the time, money (there may be a chance to see it free at the moment, but I'm not going to subscribe to the service regardless, and prefer to only avail myself of free trials of things there is a chance I will end up buying) or effort to see if I like it better than the descriptions suggest.

There is always the chance, down the line that I will catch up on it via library copies, if I hear reports of subsequent seasons that make it sound more promising. We'll see.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:59 AM   #1236
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As for the tone changing and it not being dystopian, from what I've heard the fact that Picard is not in Starfleet (which seems to be a foundational aspect of the show) is quite indicative that, while Starfleet and the Federation are still there, they are not "just as it always was" and "fine", but are portrayed as having undergone a moral/ethical decay. Descriptions of various episodes seem to underline that view.
A couple of individuals within Starfleet are corrupt, including a very high ranking official. That's about the oldest story in the history of Trek, and thus it being the case here is literally it being just as it always was. It happens. A lot. There's nothing new or shocking about it.

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Even if it were true that "everything has precedent", it is possible to have a much darker tone while only using things that we've seen before, simply by making them the rule rather than the exception. For instance, there have been plenty of character deaths on ST shows and movies in the past, but they have been used sparingly for characters that we got to know at all. Here it sounds like every returning character that wasn't a main cast member (three that I know of) was dead in short order. In a season of only 10 episodes, that seems rather high to me, and points to a significantly darker tone.
The established character deaths in Picard are either extremely minor characters from previous shows (two of them), or redundant and done for absolute completion (one of them). The Borg subplot is admittedly dark, but it's always been dark, and I refer to First Contact deliberately, as that is roughly the tone of that subplot. To call it significantly darker than what has come before is simply erroneous. Darker than the norm? Sure. But not significantly so.

Seriously, just watch the show and if you're turned off by what you see, turn it off. But don't just avoid it because you're worried you won't like it. You never know, maybe you'll really like it. And if you don't, hey, at least you'll know you don't, rather than just thinking you won't. And besides, CBS All Access is free right now thanks to the social distancing thing, so you literally have nothing to lose by giving it a shot.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:15 AM   #1237
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Every subplot introduced in the first half was forgotten about or abandoned by the end. Even the synth ban. It was forgiven by the Romulans at the end? Just a misunderstanding they realized now stretching thousands of years because Soji made the right choice? Nonsense. The whole Borg thing? Rendered completely meaningless in the end.

This is fake Star Trek written by people that only ever saw the TNG movies and don't like sci-fi, motivated only by what's hip now in current left-leaning politics. But they're too stupid to even make THAT aspect work, or even be coherent.
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Old 03-31-2020, 08:30 AM   #1238
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None of the plots were abandoned or forgotten about, they just played out.

SPOILERS!



The synth ban was lifted because it was proven to not be the synths but the Romulans who orchestrated the attack on Mars. The reason for it was negated by the truth, so of course it was lifted. The Romulans didn't abandon or forgive anything, they ran away from the Federation armada because it was a pointless fight aince the beacon was already destroyed. And the Borg thing all lead to Seven becoming something greater than she was, and promises to play out further next season, as will the Romulan stuff, and the synth issue, no doubt.

The fact that you're so bent on saying all these plots were abandoned makes me wonder if you understand the art of storytelling at all, and that's weird because I know you know better. Not playing out how you think they should or would like them to does not equal abandonment.

And what politics?! You've been whining about that since the get go, but I didn't see anything of the sort that was any more than we saw in Insurrection or Measure of a Man, and they were played out fine, and entirely on point for Picards idealism. Maybe you're problem is that you've just decided to hate everything new. I mean, I don't think I've seen you enjoy anything in the last five years or so save for Cobra Kai. Seemingly everything else in every other franchise is just shit that's stupidly written and over politicized and wah wah wah. You seem to have been consumed by toxic negative fandom to the point where everything sucks because -- I don't know. Because you're jealous that people are making things you think that you could do better, but have never had the chance to do?

Tough luck, man. I'm right there with ya. I've just realized that I can still enjoy things even if I think it could've been done better.

(Sorry if that was overly harsh.)
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:16 PM   #1239
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Another issue I have is that, if I watch the show, I'm going to want to watch it with my family, who are also Trek fans. It doesn't sound as if that would be appropriate, at least for some episodes, which further lessens my interest.

As I said before, I'll keep an eye on it. I'm not getting the service (wouldn't be subscribing even if I KNEW I wanted to watch this, as it just isn't enough to justify it, and I don't like taking free trials of things when I know there is no chance I'm going to buy. It feels wrong to me), but when the library gets copies I'll revisit the possibility, especially after my kids get a bit older.
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Old 04-05-2020, 12:20 PM   #1240
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Well, besides being Palm Sunday, it’s also First Contact Day again. 43 years to go!

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Old 05-19-2020, 02:19 PM   #1241
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+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


My posted comment was "I have never chomped at the bit for them to retcon the old stuff. Move on or drop it. Besides, Iím not buying another streaming service."
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Old 05-19-2020, 03:22 PM   #1242
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They have to make Starfleet evil, like the Guardians, because they can't think of anything else to write.

If you have to resort to that, then Star Trek the fuck alone and go write your own shit.

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Old 05-19-2020, 04:49 PM   #1243
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Who made Starfleet evil? A few corrupt officials doesn't make something evil.
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:53 PM   #1244
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Who made Starfleet evil? A few corrupt officials doesn't make something evil.
Why would anyone do that? It's bullshit, like the evil Guardians and all the bad Corps that Geoff created.

Star Trek is about a starship that's seeking out new life and new civilizations. If you can't write about that, then you're a goose in the forum and you need to get out.
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:57 AM   #1245
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Corrupt Starfleet officials date back to Roddenberry's own oversight of the franchise. If you think he's a goose in the forum, or let such in to call fowl, maybe you need to get your head checked. Corruption within the ranks of Starfleet is so common, it might as well be the norm.
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:17 PM   #1246
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Corruption within the ranks of Starfleet is so common, it might as well be the norm.
Now THAT'S an exaggeration, and you know it. (Or else just poorly phrased, because the way you phrased it here it sound like it is saying a Starfleet officer is more likely to be corrupt than not.)

I haven't actually watched Picard, so maybe you can let me know if this perception is accurate. It seems like the corruption here is much more...effective, let's say...than in previous instances. It has a much larger effect on the actions of Starfleet as a whole, and on the ethics of various Federation actions over a period of years. Previously it has felt like (with the notable exception of Section 31's existence) a corrupt Starfleet or Federation official is revealed, and dealt with by our heroes, in fairly short order, with their plans being foiled before they have much of a lasting effect.

It seems to me to be a notably darker take to allow the corruption to have such a large effect on the course of Federation history. The Admiral in Insurrection was thwarted in short order. The assassins in Star Trek 6, while they did kill Gorkon, were stopped from killing the Federation President, and their aim of disrupting the peace talks failed. The Admiral who tried to stage something of a military coup because he thought the fight against the Dominion warranted it was also thwarted before any serious damage was done.

Section 31 was a different case, of course, (though largely because their early operations were simply retconned in) but from the time they were first revealed the heroes were opposing them, and in the end things didn't really go according to their plans.

In Picard, I get the impression that the corruption went undetected for a long while, and had a large, adverse effect on the Federation, even if it ended up being exposed years after the fact, and thwarted in its current goal, during the Picard series. That, to me, paints a much darker vision than any of the previous instances of corruption I can recall.
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Old 05-20-2020, 07:34 PM   #1247
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Re Ed's complaint about language, I'm not a prude about that, and as a fan of Westerns, I wanted to watch Deadwood. But when no character can speak one sentence without "fuck" in it, I'm turning off the television.

That's what people who can't write dialogue resort to. Similarly, making something about corruption in the ranks or among the brass is something that people who can't think of stories resort to.
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Old 05-21-2020, 12:35 AM   #1248
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There were only two corrupt Starfleet officers in Picard, and only one of them was high ranking. They were Romulan moles that had been there for a very long time. True, they were part of a secret order of Romulans who had manipulated the federation several years prior to the main events of the series, leading to the plot centric ban on synthetic life, but the whole order had done that together, not just them. They were (more or less) simply spies.
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Old 05-21-2020, 02:07 PM   #1249
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There were only two corrupt Starfleet officers in Picard, and only one of them was high ranking. They were Romulan moles that had been there for a very long time. True, they were part of a secret order of Romulans who had manipulated the federation several years prior to the main events of the series, leading to the plot centric ban on synthetic life, but the whole order had done that together, not just them. They were (more or less) simply spies.
But they had, successfully, influenced Starfleet and the Federation in a bad direction for years before being exposed. That's what seems darker to me. The forces of good had failed to notice or oppose them (at least successfully) until long after significant damage was done.
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Old 05-21-2020, 04:39 PM   #1250
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All they did, all they ever wanted to do, was prevent synthetic technology from moving forward. They acted out of fear, pushing everyone, including the federation, to stand against synthetic development. I don't know if I'd necessarily call it a "bad" direction -- a limiting one, for sure, as we see how it caused some otherwise preventable things due to some medical procedure limitations, but still. It's not like the federation was fooled into committing some heinous crimes or anything. And arguably, given what one of the synthetics does of its own free will by the end of the season, the fears that made those Romulans act may have actually been legitimate. There's something out there that wants to kill everyone, and those Romulans really just want to protect us.
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